Training Camp Thread

[CarltonTheBear]

Two of my favourite Hyman stats:

https://twitter.com/quinnesq/status/857030888915427328
https://twitter.com/quinnesq/status/881642743713366017

 

[herman]

If Brown is down on the 4th line to start the year, I think he will get the PP minutes boost over Komarov. If they run with Rosen or Johnsson sneaks into the lineup, I could see them putting Matthews on the crease instead of the wall, as he has the best in-close hands of this second group. Johnsson and/or Rosen take up the left halfwall and out lane with their +shots, while Nylander basically has two open sticks to play off of with Marleau and Matthews on top of the crease.

I don't know about any of that. Rosen isn't going to make the Leafs go back on their '4-F PP is best" strategy, and Johnsson almost certainly isn't cracking the line-up. And I'm not sure moving Matthews off the wall would be a smart idea. All the elite forwards play there, not in front of the net. Brown will likely bump Komarov out of the net-front spot on Matthews' unit. That's how they practiced at the beginning of the preseason. So it'll be:

Brown
Matthews-Marleau-Nylander
D

With the other unit staying the same.

I was imagining Rosen to be the D-man on the 4F1DPP, actually.

Johnsson and Grundstrom, I'm pretty certain, will be the first ups post-JvR/Komarov. I don't mind down-low Brown and he makes way more sense than Komarov from a minutes per age and skill perspective, as they're both 3-phase players

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I was imagining Rosen to be the D-man on the 4F1DPP, actually.

Well, even in that case Rosen wouldn't be playing on the wall as having a forward playing on the blue line would lead to a higher number of odd-man rushes back. And I can't see Rosen getting PP time over 2 of Rielly/Gardiner/Zaitsev anyway.

 

[herman]

I'd think that would be inevitable even without any personal growth on Hyman's part just because he'll be playing a full season with Matthews-Nylander.

Even still, I'd think it would be reflected just as much in his assist rate. You'd figure the world's best puck-getter would be able to rack them up playing with some pretty talented goal-scorers.

I totally agree. I think Babcock calls him a puck-getter, but he's really more of a space clearer. On the forecheck, he basically boxes up two guys right away and causes cross-ups and loose pucks (even if he doesn't touch it). He has to know by now how skilled his linemates are, so he could really just shoot pretty freely (along the ice) for rebounds all over the place and they'd likely bag it from there or feed him for tap ins.

 

[herman]

I was imagining Rosen to be the D-man on the 4F1DPP, actually.

Well, even in that case Rosen wouldn't be playing on the wall as having a forward playing on the blue line would lead to a higher number of odd-man rushes back. And I can't see Rosen getting PP time over 2 of Rielly/Gardiner/Zaitsev anyway.

I should've drawn out my suggestion:
            Matthews
Johnsson - Marleau - Nylander
            Rosen

Lou mentioned they wanted the defense to be two-phase players, and Babcock wants the biggest strongest bodies on PK, which suggest to me that Zaitsev is PKing with Hainsey, Marincin/Dermott, Rielly; Gardiner and probably Carrick/Rosen get the PP. I don't think it'll line up that nicely, but that was just some theorizing.

 

[cabber24]

Two of my favourite Hyman stats:

https://twitter.com/quinnesq/status/857030888915427328
https://twitter.com/quinnesq/status/881642743713366017

Unbelievable stats... I guess I will have to try and trust "the world's best coach" on this one.

 

[mr grieves]

I'm way more okay with this now than I was last October/November. But I'd still like to see a Grundstrom in there at some point, and Babcock really likes Grundstrom's game.

I think the Athletic (or Sportsnet?) had a good article about Hyman and puck retrieval late last season. They broke it down into getting to the puck, coming up with the puck, and doing something with it.

Hyman does the first two well, but I'm not so sure about the third (where are those assists?). And, after getting Matthews or Nylander the puck, he's not very good (or terrible) at finishing a scoring chance.

Grundstrom looks interesting as a long-term nice replacement. I remember thinking Leivo was really strong on boards and could pass when he came in last season, and dunno if Kapanen could play that side (or if Nylander could switch) but he's sure got the speed to get in.

Doubt anything will happen unless there's an injury though.

 

[herman]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/leafs-ice-chips-matthews-and-marleau-team-up-on-power-play~1213687

Yo, these practice jersey logos look pretty sharp.

 

[herman]

mr. grieves, was it this one?

Morgan Rielly, on the Leafs' Kid Line during the Capitals series

?Those guys they compete down low,? Morgan Rielly said, singling out Hyman and Matthews as two of the NHL's best in terms of their tenacity during a puck battle. ?They grind. They keep the puck. They don't give it back. That's a huge aspect of the game.

?It's Hyman's first full year in the league, but you'd be hard pressed to find a guy that can grind it down low the way he does, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to play against him, the way he's able to put it in his feet and hold onto it and turn and cut back and take it to the hole. I think it's impressive. He's only going to get better.?

The key thing is, as a complementary, defensive forechecking winger that is maybe more important given the lack of pricey scoring touch on a top line laden with weaponry is, does he keep the play alive? For all his flaws on the finish, I see Hyman being a player that can revive dead plays and extend opportunities.

It's quite different than the way Nylander, Marner, Matthews do it with deft thievery and stick skill. Sheer doggedness and heavy body positioning with speed frees up space and pucks too.

 

[mr grieves]

mr. grieves, was it this one?

Nah. It was more analysis than reportage. Maybe it was a Wheeler piece? Maybe it'll come to me later...

The key thing is, as a complementary, defensive forechecking winger that is maybe more important given the lack of pricey scoring touch on a top line laden with weaponry is, does he keep the play alive? For all his flaws on the finish, I see Hyman being a player that can revive dead plays and extend opportunities.

It's quite different than the way Nylander, Marner, Matthews do it with deft thievery and stick skill. Sheer doggedness and heavy body positioning with speed frees up space and pucks too.

But the article -- and the snipped quote -- gives a nice account of how Hyman does the first two parts well. Is that enough? 32 even-strength goals for Matthews suggests so... but I wonder if there's something another winger could do that'd get the same results as what Hyman does (as far as keeping plays alive goes) but could also offer that line another scoring option.

I'm not as down on that line as I was last March, as that playoff series certainly showed them return to form, but there were a few months there where it wasn't really working. 

 

[Coco-puffs]

mr. grieves, was it this one?

Nah. It was more analysis than reportage. Maybe it was a Wheeler piece? Maybe it'll come to me later...

The key thing is, as a complementary, defensive forechecking winger that is maybe more important given the lack of pricey scoring touch on a top line laden with weaponry is, does he keep the play alive? For all his flaws on the finish, I see Hyman being a player that can revive dead plays and extend opportunities.

It's quite different than the way Nylander, Marner, Matthews do it with deft thievery and stick skill. Sheer doggedness and heavy body positioning with speed frees up space and pucks too.

But the article -- and the snipped quote -- gives a nice account of how Hyman does the first two parts well. Is that enough? 32 even-strength goals for Matthews suggests so... but I wonder if there's something another winger could do that'd get the same results as what Hyman does (as far as keeping plays alive goes) but could also offer that line another scoring option.

I'm not as down on that line as I was last March, as that playoff series certainly showed them return to form, but there were a few months there where it wasn't really working.

Yeah, its a piece by Wheeler on TheAthletic:

https://theathletic.com//46855/2017/04/02/the-curious-case-of-zach-hyman-what-should-the-leafs-do-with-their-veteran-rookie/

Wheeler's critique is he doesn't make passes from his winning races and then digging in the corner.  I'd have to say just keeping the puck down there and being hell for the d-men gives Matthews and Nylander the ability to come in and pick up the puck from him and do something with it.  Also keeps Matthews and Nylander from having to play defense from lots of one and done rushes.

 

[mr grieves]

Yeah, its a piece by Wheeler on TheAthletic:

https://theathletic.com//46855/2017/04/02/the-curious-case-of-zach-hyman-what-should-the-leafs-do-with-their-veteran-rookie/

Wheeler's critique is he doesn't make passes from his winning races and then digging in the corner.  I'd have to say just keeping the puck down there and being hell for the d-men gives Matthews and Nylander the ability to come in and pick up the puck from him and do something with it.  Also keeps Matthews and Nylander from having to play defense from lots of one and done rushes.

That's the one! Thanks.

Yeah, I'd acknowledge that there's certainly a benefit to what Hyman does. I just don't think the only other alternative is that line turning into JvR-Bozak-Kessel Redux. The team has other guys who can play a decent puck retrieval game and probably score a few goals.

 

[Coco-puffs]

Yeah, its a piece by Wheeler on TheAthletic:

https://theathletic.com//46855/2017/04/02/the-curious-case-of-zach-hyman-what-should-the-leafs-do-with-their-veteran-rookie/

Wheeler's critique is he doesn't make passes from his winning races and then digging in the corner.  I'd have to say just keeping the puck down there and being hell for the d-men gives Matthews and Nylander the ability to come in and pick up the puck from him and do something with it.  Also keeps Matthews and Nylander from having to play defense from lots of one and done rushes.

That's the one! Thanks.

Yeah, I'd acknowledge that there's certainly a benefit to what Hyman does. I just don't think the only other alternative is that line turning into JvR-Bozak-Kessel Redux. The team has other guys who can play a decent puck retrieval game and probably score a few goals.

Well, the funny thing is Matthews is a top tier puck thief:

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/5/16/15635392/toronto-maple-leafs-mitch-marner-auston-matthews-william-nylander-takeaway-puck-thief-datsyuk

As the article points out, Nylander is no slouch either.  I do think these guys would benefit from Marleau though- lots of finish, AND, he's still pretty strong in the corners on puck battles. 

If anything, I think Hyman would do his best work on the shutdown line (with Kadri and Komarov or Brown), just keeping the puck down low away from the oppositions best.  Not sure how much that would dry up Kadri's scoring though (at least with Hyman-Komarov as his wingers).  If anything, Hyman-Kadri-Kapanen might be a good one.

Or would make whoever the 4th line center is not matter a whole lot because him and Martin could probably just keep the puck in the corner for 45 seconds every shift against weaker competition.

 

[herman]

I can't believe I'm becoming a Hyman booster.

Video | This is a Marlies shorthanded goal as Hyman extends a broken play with good puck displacement, and buries a rebound.

Video | He did it in the NHL against the King too, without Sam Carrick's help.

Video | Hyman can finish a give and go.

Video | Matthews' 35th goal. I made fun of Hyman on this goal in the GDT for his dross wraparound attempt turning into Matthews' goal, but I should've seen how he scooped up a blueline turnover (that he facilitated by sitting on the outlet player's hands), dragged it through a maze of players, dished to a handler and retrieved it immediately after it was lost before 'setting up' the finish. 1 solid defensive positioning, 2-3 retrievals and puck holds, 1 flubbed scoring attempt.

 

[herman]

On the other hand,

https://twitter.com/MikeKellyNHL/status/911021585842262017
www.twitter.com/MikeKellyNHL/status/911021585842262017
https://twitter.com/MikeKellyNHL/status/911020013707984897
www.twitter.com/MikeKellyNHL/status/911020013707984897

But I think this was obvious already. The corollary to this is that I?d prefer a different player take the brunt of the first-to-the-puck hits along the boards and I don?t mind Matthews? and Nylander?s fly-by yoinks.

Not knowing how this stat is tracked and just going by ?recovering loose pucks?, this isn?t necessarily counting generating loose pucks (which is what Hyman actually does).

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Now he's making me agree with Mike Kelly? God I hate Hyman now.

 

[cabber24]

Hyman's new nickname is "Fetch" the world's best puck fetcher.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

What are people's thoughts on Komarov as the 4th line pivot and keeping one or two of the skilled wingers around?

Hyman-Matthews-Nylander
Marleau-Kadri-Brown
JVR-Bozak-Marner
Leivo-Komarov-Kapanen
Martin Moore

Moore and Martin could sub in as needed and it'd let you roll a more even lineup to keep guys fresh, load up the big guns on the PP.

 

[Kin]

Initially my thought is I'd rather trade Komarov and keep Moore in that role.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

An interesting little tidbit from the latest podcast from The Athletic, Siegel mentioned when he spoke to Aaltonen that he was aware that the Leafs were going to have to pay the triplets pretty soon and that would mean clearing out some veterans, he felt that the opportunity to play for the Leafs later this year/next season presented a better career path than coming right to the NHL and starting with a team like Vegas.

It points to how highly thought of this team and its current trajectory is outside of the Toronto bubble even.