What Now?
- Thread starter hobarth
- Start date
Nik said:
After every game TO loses against, say Mtl., fans express their displeasure with the obvious purpose of demanding things be done to improve the team. Demanding isn't logical but it's there, nothing about forums is logical, it's a place to express displeasure/hopes for what's going on at any given time.
TO is in a truly difficult time, the talent is excellent but obviously not enough to expect much beyond the regular season, Dubie with some creative moves could possibly shore up the team giving it a much better immediate future but the long range future could be the cost. Chicago, now, is probably what TO can expect to become in the near future, if TO goes all in, Cupless is probably the result if TO doesn't go all in. Hopefully TO will also have at least one Cup.
I expect Matthews will want say 16 mil. per, Mitch too, Nylander will expect 10 mil. and with JT still with TO, one or two of those players will have to go. TO has been able to keep the 4 but they haven't accomplished what many have thought they should, would it even be worthwhile to try to keep them together?
I see things like the broadcast will say TO's puck possession in the OZ is 10 minutes in a game and the opposition's time is 5 minutes but I often don't feel that's what I'm seeing, I know no matter who TO plays if TO has a serious advantage in the number of shots in the 1st period, things will even out pretty much during the game, shot attempts mean nothing to me, actual shots on goal are a far better barometer of what's happening.
I don't see a killer instinct in TO now and TO hasn't been able to seal the deal even when playing well and having a healthy lead in playoff series, that needs to change now or I expect we will be seeing the end of the Matthews/Marner era with nothing to show for it. Shoring up the roster for the upcoming playoffs is something I think needs to be done if we are to expect any change in the results.
Expressing an interest in TO's change of approach to the upcoming playoffs is a demand by any other word, it's the same thing, fans are demanding, jeering when a goalie makes a save during a bad game is a demand by fans for better, booing during a poorly played PP is a demand for better, we fans have a right to demand, it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's the nature of fandom. Forums are patronized by the ever optimistic with their views/demands the foundation of their optimism.
Is this just a long form version of the armchair gm thread? I'm confused.
The team is having a pretty good season. I'm ok with sending a first and Robertson off for an infusion of high talent. I don't think this forum has ever been overly optimistic, just that some understand the rationale of what they're doing. I would've preferred some head rolling after the Habs loss but it didn't happen, whatever. The team either wins a round this year or major changes are coming this year. I don't think they'll have enough depth with JT on the roster generally.
I think we all want the team to win and we all have opinions on that, but I'm not going to worry too much about things beyond my control on the long term before this season plays out.
The team is having a pretty good season. I'm ok with sending a first and Robertson off for an infusion of high talent. I don't think this forum has ever been overly optimistic, just that some understand the rationale of what they're doing. I would've preferred some head rolling after the Habs loss but it didn't happen, whatever. The team either wins a round this year or major changes are coming this year. I don't think they'll have enough depth with JT on the roster generally.
I think we all want the team to win and we all have opinions on that, but I'm not going to worry too much about things beyond my control on the long term before this season plays out.
L K
Well-known member
I'd be kind of surprised if Robertson brings much value in a trade at this point. He's an undersized played with 7 points in 31 games in the NHL and 46 points over three small chunks of AHL time (51 games).
He's young and is set back significantly on his development curve but I think his value is going to be a lot closer to Connor Timmins than something that gets a big return at the deadline. Robertson's value is going to be low right now and his value will be higher to the Leafs staying with the organization and spending a full year in the AHL next year getting stronger.
He's young and is set back significantly on his development curve but I think his value is going to be a lot closer to Connor Timmins than something that gets a big return at the deadline. Robertson's value is going to be low right now and his value will be higher to the Leafs staying with the organization and spending a full year in the AHL next year getting stronger.
bustaheims
Well-known member
L K said:
I don't know if his value has dropped that much yet, considering he's still only 21. Probably closer to Timmins in the Kuemper trade than what the Leafs got him for - a significant but secondary piece.
L K
Well-known member
bustaheims said:
I guess? I mean Timmins was traded when he was 22. Definitely had injury concerns but also was a 2nd round pick RHD with the prototypical big body that can skate frame. Even then he was still just part of a 1st + 3rd + Timmins for Kuemper trade (obviously a good goalie and it worked out for Colorado).
How much value is Robertson going to provide at the deadline when prices escalate? I still really like him as a prospect but I really can't see an injured player boosting a trade all that much.
bustaheims
Well-known member
L K said:
Selling teams are generally less concerned about how the pieces they acquire will help out this season, so, Robertson's injury isn't as much as a factor as it would be for a straight hockey deal with another playoff team. I'm not saying he'll provide huge value, but he has more value than the basically zero that Timmins had when Arizona gave him to the Leafs.
Kin
Active member
hobarth said:
I think this fundamentally misunderstands what the word demand means in a pretty drastic way. The only way someone can "demand" something meaningfully is if there are consequences for the demandee if they don't deliver. Likewise, the person making demands will only be acquiesced to if those consequences seem worse to the person with the power to give in to them than the alternative.
Within regards to sports fandom. These "demands" are almost entirely hollow. We have no power to demand change and the consequences for teams for ignoring them are more or less non-existent. Fans might want change after a loss but there are no conditions attached. If changes don't materialize people here don't stop being fans. The idea of a fan demand is akin to the idea that Zach Aston-Reese will, next time his contract is being negotiated, "demand" 10 million dollars a year. He can make that demand all he wants but he will be ignored. The difference between a request and a demand is power. Fans have no power short of withholding their fandom and I think it's safe to say around here that if that were a real threat for any of us we'd have reached it by now.
The purpose of this discussion forum, what it's been traditionally, has been to discuss among ourselves with the the how's and the why's of the team making changes. Would Player X be better than Player Y in Position Z or which player should the team draft or any one of a thousand other things that neither are predicated on the illusion that fans have any power to "demand" anything nor do they require any particular level of emotional investment. Lots of posters here do and always have discussed things reasonably and intelligently and there have also been those who seem to be very angry when this hockey team loses games. To the extent that a "demand" simply constitutes a suggestion made at a particular volume level or with a certain lack of perspective behind it not only makes the concept largely meaningless it also is emphatically, as I said before, neither mandatory nor even all that common. Lots of people can and do talk about the team calmly.
Bill_Berg
Active member
I vowed to not spend a nickel on the NHL for eight years after the lockout od 2012, and to the best of my knowledge, I haven't. I extended it until the Leafs win the Cup after the Montreal debacle. I demand a Leafs Cup or I will not intentionally spend money on anything NHL. I don't count time as money, and if my free path to TSN and Sportsnet goes south, I may have to rescind.
We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.
I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.
Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.
I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.
Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.
Kin
Active member
hobarth said:
The answer is yes, you can. There is nothing that could happen to this hockey team that will require you to lose your cool. Whether or not you keep your hockey fandom, a recreational pursuit that is meant to be fun, in the proper perspective is 100% within your control.
hobarth said:
If how this team performs to you is something you want to talk about as a matter of survival then please go outside for a bit and take a few deep breaths.
Guilt Trip
Well-known member
It's flat out ridiculous.Bender said:
Highlander
Active member
Man, I want some of what your smoking. Outside of being daft, Rielly has a NMC, he can't be traded, why don't people seem to get that?hobarth said:
bustaheims
Well-known member
Highlander said:
Because it doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has final say over if he wants to be traded - and typically, they're not an impediment to making a trade.
bustaheims said:
Technically I agree, but they're likely an impediment to getting the best deal back.
I'm also of the opinion that if an organization offers NMCs to sweeten contracts, and they pressure recipients to waive, it's not a good strategy for attracting FAs or retaining talent. - particularly in a case where Reilly just signed an extension fairly recently.
bustaheims
Well-known member
Also, there?s dozens and dozens of incidents of players being asked about waiving clauses with little to no blowback on the teams. The Flyers haven?t had much issue signing anyone even after the trades Carter and Richards shortly before extensions kicked in. It?s a business. Players understand that. Might burn bridges with the specific guys being shipped out, but the idea that it has a larger impact on the team being able to add talent via free agency has been largely debunked.
That being said, the team should have little to no interest in trading Rielly.
That being said, the team should have little to no interest in trading Rielly.
Kin
Active member
bustaheims said:
Yeah, between front office turnover and just the reality that most guys are going to make personal decisions come free agent time(especially $ based) it seems unlikely to be a real factor in attracting guys to the team in any meaningful lasting sense. A much more realistic concern would be about what it might do to the dynamic with the guys you've already got if you're not great to a buddy of theirs.