WHOA - Mike Babcock OUT | Sheldon Keefe IN

[Guilt Trip]

Yeah, it's amazing how the goalposts can be moved to fit a narrative. Babcock pulled of a minor miracle in a lot of those seasons getting Detroit into the playoffs, considering age and injuries to those detroit teams, and in his first few seasons with the Leafs, playoffs were either impossible, or the finish line - like the first round loss to Washington year.

The last two seasons have seen a lot of young leaf players develop under babcock, and despite extremely weak defense personnel, had good regular seasons. Losing to Boston in the first round is more a matter of circumstance than failure; it's not Babcock's fault the Kadri put the team in such a hole matchup wise, and being bounced by a team in 7 games that was ahead of them in the standings and had home ice, and almost won the cup isn't exactly absymal failure.

This is well said and what I was getting at. The fact that people are somehow putting the loss against Washington into their case against Babcock's success is just so completely ridiculous.

I missed it. Where were people blaming Babs for Washington? I don't recall many blaming him for the 1st Boston game 7 loss. Last year however, he was a big reason for me, along with Kadri.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Yeah, it's amazing how the goalposts can be moved to fit a narrative. Babcock pulled of a minor miracle in a lot of those seasons getting Detroit into the playoffs, considering age and injuries to those detroit teams, and in his first few seasons with the Leafs, playoffs were either impossible, or the finish line - like the first round loss to Washington year.

The last two seasons have seen a lot of young leaf players develop under babcock, and despite extremely weak defense personnel, had good regular seasons. Losing to Boston in the first round is more a matter of circumstance than failure; it's not Babcock's fault the Kadri put the team in such a hole matchup wise, and being bounced by a team in 7 games that was ahead of them in the standings and had home ice, and almost won the cup isn't exactly absymal failure.

This is well said and what I was getting at. The fact that people are somehow putting the loss against Washington into their case against Babcock's success is just so completely ridiculous.

I missed it. Where were people blaming Babs for Washington? I don't recall many blaming him for the 1st Boston game 7 loss. Last year however, he was a big reason for me, along with Kadri.

People are using the fact that he hasn't gotten the team past the first round in 3 seasons.

 

[Bates]

I'm not blaming Babcock for any losses, just as I'm not calling him a success for not winning. Getting to game 7 in round one just doesn't seem that impressive.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Yeah, it's amazing how the goalposts can be moved to fit a narrative. Babcock pulled of a minor miracle in a lot of those seasons getting Detroit into the playoffs, considering age and injuries to those detroit teams, and in his first few seasons with the Leafs, playoffs were either impossible, or the finish line - like the first round loss to Washington year.

The last two seasons have seen a lot of young leaf players develop under babcock, and despite extremely weak defense personnel, had good regular seasons. Losing to Boston in the first round is more a matter of circumstance than failure; it's not Babcock's fault the Kadri put the team in such a hole matchup wise, and being bounced by a team in 7 games that was ahead of them in the standings and had home ice, and almost won the cup isn't exactly absymal failure.

This is well said and what I was getting at. The fact that people are somehow putting the loss against Washington into their case against Babcock's success is just so completely ridiculous.

I missed it. Where were people blaming Babs for Washington? I don't recall many blaming him for the 1st Boston game 7 loss. Last year however, he was a big reason for me, along with Kadri.

People are using the fact that he hasn't gotten the team past the first round in 3 seasons.

Oh, ok. Blaming him for Wash would be dumb.

 

[Stebro]

To me this was the right move, here's why:
*Lack of action from Babcock (playing Rielly and Ceci over and over when it doesn't work)
*Crappy special teams (if the assistants don't do well, I still blame the head coach for not taking charge)
*Not coming with much concrete when team is slumping other than "keep grinding" (his stubborness with the same solutions cost us points imo)
*Slow starts and a bad record for the last 80 games or so

 

[Bill_Berg]

I wonder if the players were speaking out to Dubas about Babcock and the firing is a little bit of 'okay, you got what you want, now it's on you'. Cause if they don't get better, it's going to be players getting moved next. 

I will also say I'm undecided if this is a good move or not, but I went from definitely not staying up tomorrow night to I'm buying some redbull.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I get the sense that it's more than a knee-jerk reaction to outside pressure, but I guess only they know for sure.

I think it's probably a pretty simple thought process to them; trading away 1st round picks and signing massive contracts to put the team in "win now" mode, and missing the playoffs, is a failure that can only be placed on the management group. Dubas has gone all-in on a brand-new concept built on how he thinks the modern game has to be played which has never been done before; and probably quite rightly feels that Keefe has better tools to coach the team to that vision.

Quite frankly, based on the off-season moves, he should have done Mike a favour and let him go at the end of last season.

 

[Highlander]

Yeah, it's amazing how the goalposts can be moved to fit a narrative. Babcock pulled of a minor miracle in a lot of those seasons getting Detroit into the playoffs, considering age and injuries to those detroit teams, and in his first few seasons with the Leafs, playoffs were either impossible, or the finish line - like the first round loss to Washington year.

The last two seasons have seen a lot of young leaf players develop under babcock, and despite extremely weak defense personnel, had good regular seasons. Losing to Boston in the first round is more a matter of circumstance than failure; it's not Babcock's fault the Kadri put the team in such a hole matchup wise, and being bounced by a team in 7 games that was ahead of them in the standings and had home ice, and almost won the cup isn't exactly absymal failure.

This is well said and what I was getting at. The fact that people are somehow putting the loss against Washington into their case against Babcock's success is just so completely ridiculous.

I missed it. Where were people blaming Babs for Washington? I don't recall many blaming him for the 1st Boston game 7 loss. Last year however, he was a big reason for me, along with Kadri.

People are using the fact that he hasn't gotten the team past the first round in 3 seasons.

Oh, ok. Blaming him for Wash would be dumb.

Tru dat but no wins in 3 tries is still no wins in 3 tries and this year was looking like no playoffs, a change would have been made in this case regardless if no playoffs so let's change it now and see what happens. It's not like Keefe has not turned around teams in dramatic fashion in the past albeit not NHL level.

I have always said for Babcock to stay not even a 2nd round appearance would save him, he would need a conference final or the Cup final to stay.  The other thing, is this team has been God awful to watch to the point of painful.  I don't care if they win at this point (OK I do), but for C___sake I want to be entertained by a team that looks like at least they are trying.  Let's hope this happens.

 

[Highlander]

I get the sense that it's more than a knee-jerk reaction to outside pressure, but I guess only they know for sure.

I think it's probably a pretty simple thought process to them; trading away 1st round picks and signing massive contracts to put the team in "win now" mode, and missing the playoffs, is a failure that can only be placed on the management group. Dubas has gone all-in on a brand-new concept built on how he thinks the modern game has to be played which has never been done before; and probably quite rightly feels that Keefe has better tools to coach the team to that vision.

Quite frankly, based on the off-season moves, he should have done Mike a favour and let him go at the end of last season.

That was what Dubas wanted to do but was blocked by Shanahan and the higher ups.  Mike Babcock is a legend and icon in this sport and even though his contract was top heavy, the brass wanted him to have at least one more kick at the can. Keefe could wait for one more year.  If the wheels had not fallen off and  he made the playoffs Bab's would have to have gone to at least the conference the finals to continue another season.  However it all academic now.

 

[disco]

The Keefe era has begun.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Yeah, it's amazing how the goalposts can be moved to fit a narrative. Babcock pulled of a minor miracle in a lot of those seasons getting Detroit into the playoffs, considering age and injuries to those detroit teams, and in his first few seasons with the Leafs, playoffs were either impossible, or the finish line - like the first round loss to Washington year.

The last two seasons have seen a lot of young leaf players develop under babcock, and despite extremely weak defense personnel, had good regular seasons. Losing to Boston in the first round is more a matter of circumstance than failure; it's not Babcock's fault the Kadri put the team in such a hole matchup wise, and being bounced by a team in 7 games that was ahead of them in the standings and had home ice, and almost won the cup isn't exactly absymal failure.

This is well said and what I was getting at. The fact that people are somehow putting the loss against Washington into their case against Babcock's success is just so completely ridiculous.

I missed it. Where were people blaming Babs for Washington? I don't recall many blaming him for the 1st Boston game 7 loss. Last year however, he was a big reason for me, along with Kadri.

People are using the fact that he hasn't gotten the team past the first round in 3 seasons.

Oh, ok. Blaming him for Wash would be dumb.

Tru dat but no wins in 3 tries is still no wins in 3 tries and this year was looking like no playoffs, a change would have been made in this case regardless if no playoffs so let's change it now and see what happens. It's not like Keefe has not turned around teams in dramatic fashion in the past albeit not NHL level.

I have always said for Babcock to stay not even a 2nd round appearance would save him, he would need a conference final or the Cup final to stay.  The other thing, is this team has been God awful to watch to the point of painful.  I don't care if they win at this point (OK I do), but for C___sake I want to be entertained by a team that looks like at least they are trying.  Let's hope this happens.

The Leafs used to be a fun and feared team to watch. Their high end offence was lots of fun to watch. They don't look like that team anymore. Keefe likes a high attack game so let's see how it works out. I'm willing to bet that Barrie maybe the happiest guy in Leafland today.

 

[disco]

https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/1197308885436157957
https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/1197309077577195526

 

[Guilt Trip]

https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/1197308885436157957
https://twitter.com/sunhornby/status/1197309077577195526

That's def not describing Babs.

 

[rdowdall]

Just showed on Sporstnet, Keefe record with the last three teams he has coached,  Double the amount of wins than losses, when he showed up in the Soo, they were in a mess. He turned them around and took them on a winning streak. Won the Calder Cup.
Lets hope for the same results: Burkie just said Keefe's "winning percentages everywhere he has gone is phenomenal , let's Give him a chance".

My only fear with this thinking is that players at the OHL and AHL level have an intrinsic motivation to listen to the coach in order to progress to the next level.  I would think that has a different dynamic than coaching players at the NHL level.

A lot of talk was brought up today about his lack of NHL experience.  We should definitely give him a chance, but when we have the value of hindsight, if things don't go rosy, this lack of experience may be the reason why.

 

[Kin]

Being successful in the AHL is no more indicative of NHL success for a coach than it is a player.

 

[Kin]

Another side note that I'm sure has been mentioned on Twitter but aside from temporary in-season replacements, you have to go back to John Brophy for a Leafs coach to be making his NHL coaching debut with the club.

 

[rdowdall]

Another side note that I'm sure has been mentioned on Twitter but aside from temporary in-season replacements, you have to go back to John Brophy for a Leafs coach to be making his NHL coaching debut with the club.

Does this mean we are going to trade Marner for Ryan Reaves?  Actually, I guess this would go the other way.  I guess we would trade Muzzin for a smaller faster d-man.

 

[Kin]

A lot of talk was brought up today about his lack of NHL experience.  We should definitely give him a chance, but when we have the value of hindsight, if things don't go rosy, this lack of experience may be the reason why.

I don't even think it's a lack of "experience" that concerns me. It's that, given how important the next few years are for the team, I'm not 100% I'm thrilled with the guy chosen to head the team just being the available guy on hand.

I appreciate that Keefe is Dubas' guy and has long been seen as the on-deck guy but right now being Dubas' guy isn't exactly the ringing endorsement it might otherwise be.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

My only fear with this thinking is that players at the OHL and AHL level have an intrinsic motivation to listen to the coach in order to progress to the next level.  I would think that has a different dynamic than coaching players at the NHL level.

I'd certainly agree to an extent; those with high dollar, high term deals are certainly going to have a different perspective when it comes to a carrot/stick approach, but on the other hand, one hopes that the reason one signs players to such deals is because it's largely unnecessary.

For most of the team though, I'd think there'd always be motivations to leverage.

Regarding Keefe's success at the AHL level, I think one has to also consider the advantages that the Marlies have over so many other clubs; a bunch of 1 way and 2 way deals, much higher payroll, player amenities, etc, etc. Definitely not saying that he hasn't been key to his accomplishments, but it isn't always a level playing field.

 

[rdowdall]

A lot of talk was brought up today about his lack of NHL experience.  We should definitely give him a chance, but when we have the value of hindsight, if things don't go rosy, this lack of experience may be the reason why.

I don't even think it's a lack of "experience" that concerns me. It's that, given how important the next few years are for the team, I'm not 100% I'm thrilled with the guy chosen to head the team just being the available guy on hand.

I appreciate that Keefe is Dubas' guy and has long been seen as the on-deck guy but right now being Dubas' guy isn't exactly the ringing endorsement it might otherwise be.

Yeah, that's a great point.  As much as it would have sucked to miss the playoffs, at least you would have a clearer picture about direction in the summer.  Now if Keefe doesn't work out, then what do you do?

McKenzie tonight was saying that Dubas has only hired two coaches in his entire GM career.  He hired Stapleton in the Soo.  He fired him shortly after hiring him, and then hired Keefe.  He has brought Keefe along with him every where he has gone. I don't want to say that it will fail just because it is unorthodox, but when you are the GM of one of the most profitable teams in the NHL with a salary expenditure or 113 million dollars, you might want to look at a couple of resumes.