2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread
- Thread starter Darryl
- Start date
maplesyrup
New member
Well, I obviously can't say if this is the truth or not but here's the bones of it;
Dan Shulman @DShulman_ESPN
Escobar again: "It's just something said amongst Latino players, it's not meant to be offensive.
Edit: Still an idiotic thing to do though.
Dan Shulman @DShulman_ESPN
Escobar again: "It's just something said amongst Latino players, it's not meant to be offensive.
Edit: Still an idiotic thing to do though.
bustaheims
Active member
It wouldn't surprise me if, a few months from now, he'll be former Blue Jay Yunel Escobar.
Champ Kind
New member
Corn Flake said:
Or it could be more sinister than that, Corn. He seems like a brooding, sulking guy (watch him in the dugout after an out). And for sure that was the baggage he carried with him when he arrived from Atlanta. Maybe he just didn't care about what the others said and he did what he wanted. I mean, would a guy like Omar Vizquel tell him that it wasn't a good idea? Encarnacion? Bautista (assuming he's around)? These are the clubhouse leaders and surely they would have counseled him.
maplesyrup
New member
bustaheims said:
It wouldn't have surprised me even if this didn't happen.
Champ Kind
New member
bustaheims said:
I think this is a defining action for him. I think he'll have to go somewhere else in order to continue playing.
You know, while this news discourages me and makes me wonder about the culture inside sports, an article like this really lifts my spirits. A true leader, an agent for change, and someone that sports culture needs more of (along with someone like Brian Burke).
http://www.thestar.com/sports/football/nfl/article/1257372--baltimore-raven-brendan-ayanbadejo-s-push-for-rights-began-at-early-age
#1PilarFan
New member
I think ultimately it was Escobar just not considering the possible consequences of his actions and the Jays dealt with it accordingly. It's tough to say whether Escobar understood how that word could be translated to english, but he's old enough and been in Toronto long enough that he should know better.
A little bit of ignorance and thoughtlessness has cost Escobar almost $100,000 if my math is correct.
A little bit of ignorance and thoughtlessness has cost Escobar almost $100,000 if my math is correct.
Champ Kind
New member
#1PilarFan said:
I guess I'm having trouble understanding how someone who has been playing baseball - and therefore spending at least 8 months of the year in an English-speaking environment - in the US and Canada since 2005 wouldn't have understood that something like that could be taken the wrong way.
#1PilarFan
New member
Champ Kind said:
Well a few things;
1) There seems to be disagreement on how to actually translate the phrase into English
2) You don't have to have any kind of common sense to be a baseball player
3) He clearly still struggles to grasp the fundamentals of English, to the point where I doubt he has considered the potential for mistranslation or misunderstanding a phrase as (apparently) popular as the one he chose to wear on his face
Ultimately, Escobar's an idiot and has to be punished for it, but do you actually believe he meant to say "You're a ******", in public no less?
GhostofPotvin29
New member
I guess my problem with it all is - if Escobar's translation of it wasn't a gay slur, and wasn't something particularly offensive, I think there's a good chance he legitimately did not think anything of it. If it is as commonplace a saying as it is being made out to be by Latin media/latin players.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Wouldn't be the dumbest thing I've seen people write on themselves.
Kin
New member
Champ Kind said:
Well, from what I know of latin ball players a lot of them can play ball in the states or Canada and not immerse themselves in the culture at all. If they're living out of a hotel or a condo and consuming only spanish language media it's not all that hard to imagine he wouldn't pick up the nuances of the language.
Keep in mind this isn't a case like say an English guy coming to the states and not realizing that a curse word that's pretty common and inoffensive in the UK is like our worst curse word but rather a case where someone who speaks an entirely different language comes and a word that's pretty common where he's from's nearest translation is an offensive word. That's a really big difference.
Trust me, as someone with a German/Yiddish linguistic background the idea that an "approximate English translation" will actually convey the sense of a foreign word doesn't hold true in a lot of cases.
Kin
New member
Andy007 said:
Well, think about it this way, the way the word was translated to me back when I was interested in learning about foreign curse words isn't "fa--ot" but rather "p---y". Now, there's a lot of similarities there in the way those words are used as insults. They're both challenges to ones manliness and bravery even if they're not being used literally. So, if you read it in the second way it's not all that farfetched that it's something Escobar would think is a relatively harmless insult but also the sort of thing dumb guys might throw at each other at home.
Trust me, I lived in a fraternity house. That would not crack the top 10 most offensive ways we greeted each other.
Andy007 said:
Not really because A) there's a different cultural context and B) there's a different historical context. While it certainly can be interpreted as having similar meanings the reality is that those two words aren't the same. The reason the word starting with an "F" is even a slur in the first place derives from some pretty weird history. Other words, even other slurs, don't have that. There are quite a handful of anti-gay slurs that would yield a less visceral response. Some are relatively tame enough that I could type them as is, sissy for instance, and some, like queer, are derived from a relatively harmless historical meaning.
So this word, as far as I know, doesn't have that same baggage.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
So kind of like the Canadian Olympic team wearing 'Roots' shirts in Sydney, not knowing what 'root' means as slang in Australia...
But actually funny instead.
But actually funny instead.
Kin
New member
Potvin29 said:
Sort of. I don't mean to beat my point into the ground but someone used a word in another thread that I thought made for the perfect example.Take the insult "douchebag". Now, imagine trying to translate that into another language. You wouldn't translate it literally because that doesn't make any sense. So you'd do your best to try and find an equivalent in the language you're translating it to.
But it's not something with any one real meaning. Like it can be used angrily or it can be used jokingly among friends and so if you're translating something based on its tone and intent you have to speak to the person using it to get at what they were saying.
I appreciate that there's something different here because of the use that can be construed as a homophobic slur but what I'd maybe connect that back to is the way I understood it which is a word in our culture that can be generally harmless but that I've also heard used as an insulting term towards women. I guess I'm just saying that we have words that are offensive in some contexts but not in others.
I don't know, I suppose I'm just finding it hard to wrap my head around what seems to be the popular interpretation. I don't think Escobar, or anyone, is that dumb.
hockeyfan1
New member
The Sarge said:
What is perceived as a joke in one culture or country, is perceived differently in another. That probably explains best why Escobar did what he did. He claims to not be homophobic and to have gay friends. He honestly thought no one would see it as offensive.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/09/18/davidi_blue_jays_yunel_escobar_suspension/
...it's just a contextual reminder that what is accepted and normal in some parts of the world isn't tolerated in others. The standards of the society one is in must take precedence, and over here, homophobic slurs are unacceptable, regardless of the circumstances behind them.
...it's worth keeping in mind that though he's the only Latin American player with judgment so dreadfully poor to take the field displaying it, he's far from the only one using the word.
"I was surprised because I didn't think that something like that would cause any problems," Escobar said through a translator supplied by the New York Yankees. "I didn't do it to offend anybody, so it surprised me."
He pointed out that he has gay friends, including his interior decorator and barber, and added, "honestly, they haven't felt as offended about this, there's just a different understanding in the Latin community with this word."
Backing him up on that front was Miami Marlins manager Ozzie Guillen, who told reporters: "I think this kid did it without the intention to hurt anybody. I think he did it just for fun. But in our country we do that. We're not in our country."
"In my house we call that word every 20 seconds," added Guillen. "I've got three kids. For us it's like 'What's up bro? What's up dude?' It's how you say it and to who you say it. But that's our country. We have to respect this country. Sometimes for us it's funny, for other people it's not."
... Blue Jays infielder Omar Vizquel couldn't understand all the commotion in the clubhouse Tuesday afternoon.
"I'm surprised that I'm walking in here and everybody's asking me about this. It's like, 'What happened? Who died?'" he said.
"We say that word very often, and to us, it doesn't really mean that we are decreasing anybody or talking down to people or anything like that. It's just a word we use on an everyday basis. I don't know why people are taking this so hard and so out of place or out of proportion."
...Carlos Villanueva...seeing what happened to Escobar could prompt other Latin American players to start being more careful and sensitive in their used of the word.
"We joke around, and in our countries it's very macho, but it's not right, using it as a joke or not," said Villanueva. "It doesn't make it any better and it won't go away just like that. He said, 'It's just a simple thing I did,' well, you know what, no it's not, it's something you have to know, it shouldn't have to take all this to happen for it to become a big deal.
"He's gone through other stuff before, too, but I think this will (teach) him. ? Nobody wants a guy that's going to come on a team and cause controversy, and he understands that. He's remorseful and we have to work with him, he's our teammate, we can't just turn our back on him now."