2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Derk]

Would Zaun be saying anything if the team actually succeeded this year? I mean they had one of the worst injury streaks in baseball history and lost all but one of their starting pitchers. Every position player of consequence has been injured for a significant amount of time.

If the Jays had fewer injuries, some of the kids would not have spent as much time in the majors (i.e. Sierra), so some of the issues would not have come up at all.

If these injuries never happened and the Jays were contending would this 'consequence-free clubhouse' talk turn into 'young guys, just having fun' and 'competing the best they can'

If the Jays were contending and the kids were still making these fundamental baserunning and fielding mistakes, I think he would be just as critical - those kinds of things could cost them games, and in a playoff race those things are magnified.

I still think Escobar's "eye shadow" might still have led to him bringing up this topic, but who knows for sure.

Also, the article said the Jays and/or Rogers was going to comment on this on Wednesday. I haven't read or heard anything said, has anyone else?

Anthopoulos and Beeston were both on the FAN yesterday, though I didn't hear the interviews with Alex. Also, I just read an article about Beeston.

 

[TimKerr]

Would Zaun be saying anything if the team actually succeeded this year? I mean they had one of the worst injury streaks in baseball history and lost all but one of their starting pitchers. Every position player of consequence has been injured for a significant amount of time.

If the Jays had fewer injuries, some of the kids would not have spent as much time in the majors (i.e. Sierra), so some of the issues would not have come up at all.

If these injuries never happened and the Jays were contending would this 'consequence-free clubhouse' talk turn into 'young guys, just having fun' and 'competing the best they can'

If the Jays were contending and the kids were still making these fundamental baserunning and fielding mistakes, I think he would be just as critical - those kinds of things could cost them games, and in a playoff race those things are magnified.

I still think Escobar's "eye shadow" might still have led to him bringing up this topic, but who knows for sure.

Also, the article said the Jays and/or Rogers was going to comment on this on Wednesday. I haven't read or heard anything said, has anyone else?

Anthopoulos and Beeston were both on the FAN yesterday, though I didn't hear the interviews with Alex. Also, I just read an article about Beeston.

I actually ended up reading this article today from Dave Perkins:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/baseball/mlb/article/1259704--blue-jays-play-dumb-with-and-without-yunel-escobar-perkins

It really lays out all all the fundamental mistakes they've been making and corresponds to what Zaun has been saying. But what I haven't seen is anyone laying the blame for this at John Farrell's feet. At the end of the day isn't he responsible for what goes on out there? Especially all these fundamental errors. Maybe that is what Zaun is referring to when he says it is a consequence free clubhouse but he never calls out Farrell specifically.

 

[Derk]

Good article. At least Zaun isn't the only one noticing this stuff.

Zaun did mention Farrell when he talked about it on the FAN, but like you said, he didn't really put the blame at his feet, preferring instead to say that it was the young guys not listening. It will be interesting to see what happens the rest of this season and into next when it comes to addressing the fundamentals.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Anyone know what's up with Snider?

43 games with Pittsburgh: 1 HR, 9 RBI, .248 BA, .323 OBP, .333 SLG, .657 OPS, 84 OPS+

He had 3 HR and 8 RBI in 10 games with the Jays.

 

[Kin]

Anyone know what's up with Snider?

43 games with Pittsburgh: 1 HR, 9 RBI, .248 BA, .323 OBP, .333 SLG, .657 OPS, 84 OPS+

He had 3 HR and 8 RBI in 10 games with the Jays.

He's determined to make me look like a fool. A fool, I tells ya.

 

[bustaheims]

Anyone know what's up with Snider?

43 games with Pittsburgh: 1 HR, 9 RBI, .248 BA, .323 OBP, .333 SLG, .657 OPS, 84 OPS+

He had 3 HR and 8 RBI in 10 games with the Jays.

He's had some hamstring problems recently, but, I think what we're seeing is maybe he's just not as good as he was hyped up to be. He always seemed to produce really well for the first couple weeks after being called up and then, he seemingly couldn't hit after that. Pitchers figure him out pretty quickly and he doesn't seem to be able to adapt.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Speaking of Snider...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/09/25/travis_snider_saga_clashes_with_cito_gaston/

 

[Corn Flake]

Speaking of Snider...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/09/25/travis_snider_saga_clashes_with_cito_gaston/

Yikes.  Sounds like he was very easily sidetracked by a lot of things, the promotions, demotions etc, and a player who never had any adversity at any other level until MLB.  Plus the Cito/Tenace combination didn't seem to handle him well.  It sure seems like at times, old school coaching has a hard time being able to deal with some of the newer generation of pro athletes who need more kid glove treatment.  Snider sure sounded like he needed it.

I can see why Snider didn't like Cito's approach, but when you consider how well it worked for Lind (silver slugger) as well as Bautista emerging under Cito/Murphy, it wasn't as though their methods were ineffective.  Just seemed to work for some personalities and not for others.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Yeah, I think we all already knew (at least to some extent) that Cito rubbed players the wrong way and there were issues with him, but I don't think Snider comes off very well in this either.  I mean, did he really not expect to be critiqued at the major league level?  Those seemed to be pretty minor things that would tick him off and screw with his mind.  Have to take into account his age as well, though.

 

[Kin]

Speaking of Snider...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/09/25/travis_snider_saga_clashes_with_cito_gaston/

Maybe it's just me but I find it hard not to draw parallels between this and what we've been talking about in the Allaire thread. It certainly draws into focus why you don't want to have a contentious atmosphere in a clubhouse/dressing room.

 

[Andy007]

The thing about Cito and his 'pull' approach is that it seems to have a very short shelf life. Once pitchers start figuring out your approach and adjusting you're pretty much dead in the water.

Look specifically at Hill- they changed him from a spray hitter with OBP tendencies to a low OBP power hitter. Once he hit adversary, he became useless (and now is thriving in ARI). Unless you are a pull hitter to begin with (or altogether offensively challenged) this philosophy is wholly detrimental.

Batuista maybe fits into both of my latter points, but you really can't eliminate the possibility that his success might be attributed to PED's.

Anyway that article is a great read. I still think Snider can be a force in this league but man, pretty much a mismanagement by both parties in his development.

 

[Derk]

I heard this mentioned on the Jeff Blair show this morning. It sounds like both sides had their share in how things turned out. I will be interested in parts 2 and 3, that's for sure.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Batuista maybe fits into both of my latter points, but you really can't eliminate the possibility that his success might be attributed to PED's.

I'm assuming he'd have been caught by now if he's been tested 4 or more times as he says.

 

[Andy007]

Batuista maybe fits into both of my latter points, but you really can't eliminate the possibility that his success might be attributed to PED's.

I'm assuming he'd have been caught by now if he's been tested 4 or more times as he says.

I'm not sure if it's that simple, or cut and dry. Lance Armstrong passed tests upon tests and look where he is now.

Anyway it's just something that I don't think should be dismissed, not an actual implication of guilt.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm assuming he'd have been caught by now if he's been tested 4 or more times as he says.

That's per season, by the way. MLB's PED policy is to test every player at least 4 times a season.

 

[Peter D.]

Wasn't Bautista tested something like 17 times last year or the year before?

And it's a sad state of sports when nowadays a player who reaches success they didn't realize before is instead questioned about whether he is on something than is attributed to plain old hard work over tireless hours.

 

[Corn Flake]

Rosenthal suggests the Jays are in need of veteran presence to shore things up and deal with some of the shenanigans that have gone on this year.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/toronto-blue-jays-need-more-veterans-in-clubhouse-092512

I agree that you need veterans but to me isn't that what Vizquel, Mathis, Oliver, Bautista and EE should have been this year?  Maybe part of this issue is that there may be a few bad apples in the bunch.... and Escobar sounds like he could be one... who are simply not going to change their ways no matter how much veteran swagger you bring in the room.  Ken makes a good point about Bautista arguing with umpires and being a bad example for Lawrie who got himself into trouble with that same issue, big time.  Maybe Vizquel is quiet in the room....I thought he was going to be a great addition to help the many Latin American players, and maybe he has been for some but not for others.

IMO, it's 25% finding the right leaders in the room and 75% just letting a young and very high strung bunch of kids grow up.  And if any don't appear to be on track to mature, then move them.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Part 2: http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/09/26/travis_snider_saga_part_two_deal_gone_sour/

Where we find out a hang nail will likely send Snider into a 2-month tailspin wondering what it all means.

 

[Peter D.]

It sounds like there is blame to go around Gaston, Tenace, AA and Farrell with the way Snider was handled.  But it is becoming increasingly evident he is/was extremely easily distracted and that in a way, he and his mind were his own worst enemy. 

While reading this, a part of me feels endeared to him because it seems as if he wasn't given a fair shake, but since he never convinced me with all the hype surrounding him, a bigger part of me feels that he is just as much to blame, if not more.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the articles have a definite pro-Snider slant to them, but that's probably the summation of them: many people have a hand in why he didn't work out for the Jays.