2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Corn Flake]

It sounds like there is blame to go around Gaston, Tenace, AA and Farrell with the way Snider was handled.  But it is becoming increasingly evident he is/was extremely easily distracted and that in a way, he and his mind were his own worst enemy. 

While reading this, a part of me feels endeared to him because it seems as if he wasn't given a fair shake, but since he never convinced me with all the hype surrounding him, a bigger part of me feels that he is just as much to blame, if not more.

The one name not brought up here on the who to blame list is his agent.  When he talks about having discussions with AA that should have been player/agent, where was the agent? Snider doesn't seem to mention him at all in any of the two articles so far.  If he felt he was down the Jays priority list, waiting for that contract discussion, his agent should be there to calm some fears and be pushing the Jays to get on it.

I've always assumed that the agent plays a huge role in keeping nerves of players calm when it comes to promotions/demotions, contract discussions, fragile egos in check, etc.  They certainly should be there to help quell that 'alone' feeling that Snider really gives off through this whole piece.

 

[hockeyfan1]

It sounds like there is blame to go around Gaston, Tenace, AA and Farrell with the way Snider was handled.  But it is becoming increasingly evident he is/was extremely easily distracted and that in a way, he and his mind were his own worst enemy. 

When the Jays won those World Series, before, during and after, no one seemed to have had a problem with Cito as bench boss. 

Maybe Greg Zaun is correct in that the young guys need an 'attitude change'., though not as simple as it sounds.

The trouble with players such as Snider is that, as the saying goes, "attitudes are more important than facts".  The fact of the matter is that Snider's statistics fluctuated from time to time, and that the coaches wanted him to elevate his game a notch higher since they all saw potential in him to do just that.  Trouble was, Snider saw it all differently, rather than being more communicative, he let his attitude get the better of him and in his way.

 

[maplesyrup]

Speaking of Snider... Holy Mary mother of God!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25129115&partnerId=aw-7392092916300736057-996

 

[hockeyfan1]

Speaking of Snider... Holy Mary mother of God!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25129115&partnerId=aw-7392092916300736057-996

Gee whiz, he nearly climbed over the fence to make that catch!  Very easily the catch of the season! 

 

[maplesyrup]

Speaking of Snider... Holy Mary mother of God!
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25129115&partnerId=aw-7392092916300736057-996

Gee whiz, he nearly climbed over the fence to make that catch!  Very easily the catch of the season! 

Might be one of the best catches I've ever seen. That ball must have been wrapped in bacon. 

 

[Deebo]

Similar to Rajai Davis' catch earlier this season.

 

[Joe S.]

When the Jays won those World Series, before, during and after, no one seemed to have had a problem with Cito as bench boss. 

Are you kidding? I remember the media and the call in shows back then. There was no universal love for Gaston. The common sentiment was 'anyone could have taken that team to a world series'.

 

[bustaheims]

Are you kidding? I remember the media and the call in shows back then. There was no universal love for Gaston. The common sentiment was 'anyone could have taken that team to a world series'.

There's that, and, when the team is winning championships, there's generally not going to be a whole lot of complaining about the manager and coaching staff.

 

[Champ Kind]

The call in shows and newspapers are in full blown dissection mode and speculating on what the team might look like next year.  Among the position players, the consensus seems to be that Bautista, Encarnacion, and Lawrie are locks for next year.  Personally, I think the Jays would be nuts to not consider Arbencibia a big part of their future and Rasmus is, I think, someone to hold onto as well. 

The common sentiment is also that AA is going to be very aggressive in the off-season, particularly through trades.  While I can't say I disgree with any of this, I have to say that apathy is starting to set in and I'm not confident anything of substance gets done.  The 2012 off-season is starting to look eerily similar to the 2011 off-season, which doesn't bode well, methinks.

 

[maplesyrup]

Landing two top half of the rotation type guys is going to be tough. I think we can do it but there's going to be a lot of folks cringing at the price. There's probably going to be some quality prospects moved out this winter. 

 

[Kin]

Personally, I think the Jays would be nuts to not consider Arbencibia a big part of their future and Rasmus is, I think, someone to hold onto as well. 

I agree with Rasmus, at the very least we can say with some authority that Gose hasn't established he can hit enough to be a big leaguer yet, but Arencibia is a guy I very much think they should look into moving. With D'Arnaud behind him Arencibia is someone who could be attractive to another team in a trade and who the Jays won't miss terribly. He'll be 27 next season and he's still not really getting on base at a major league level.

 

[bustaheims]

Landing two top half of the rotation type guys is going to be tough. I think we can do it but there's going to be a lot of folks cringing at the price. There's probably going to be some quality prospects moved out this winter.

I don't think they need 2 of those guys. What they really need is a true number one. They have the guys in the system who can fill those other roles more than adequately - especially if Romero can bounce back next season.

 

[maplesyrup]

Landing two top half of the rotation type guys is going to be tough. I think we can do it but there's going to be a lot of folks cringing at the price. There's probably going to be some quality prospects moved out this winter.

I don't think they need 2 of those guys. What they really need is a true number one. They have the guys in the system who can fill those other roles more than adequately - especially if Romero can bounce back next season.

I don't know if we could/should go out and do a reverse Halladay-type deal. There's just to many holes in the rotation to try to plug it with one guy. I think if we can roll out Romero, Morrow, ?, and ? (in no particular order) as the top 4, we'd probably be okay as long as ? and ? are #2 (ish) type guys in most rotations. I mean, the thought of still having question marks at #4 and #5 after selling the farm for a true ace scares me a little. Know what I mean?

 

[bustaheims]

I don't know if we could/should go out and do a reverse Halladay-type deal. There's just to many holes in the rotation to try to plug it with one guy. I think if we can roll out Romero, Morrow, ?, and ? (in no particular order) as the top 4, we'd probably be okay as long as ? and ? are #2 (ish) type guys in most rotations. I mean, the thought of still having question marks at #4 and #5 after selling the farm for a true ace scares me a little. Know what I mean?

I'd rather have the true ace. The team needs a guy they can lean on at the front of the rotation to take the pressure off of Morrow and Romero. After that, there are plenty of options in the system or in free agency to fill the back of the rotation. Finding a quality back of the rotation guy isn't anywhere close to as difficult as getting a number one guy. Without even delving into the free agent market, between guys like Happ, Alvarez, Laffey, Jenkins, some of the injured pitchers that will be back part way through next season and a bunch of guys I'm either forgetting or haven't presented themselves as options yet, filling the back of the rotation is pretty much a non-issue.

Besides, getting a pair of quality #2 type guys could very easily cost just as much as, if not more than getting a true number one, without really filling the team's needs.

 

[maplesyrup]

Besides, getting a pair of quality #2 type guys could very easily cost just as much as, if not more than getting a true number one, without really filling the team's needs.

Except that it might. I think if we got a couple guys (looking at more than just this season) on par with Morrow and Romero, I think we'd find that 1 of the 4 would probably have a #1-type season, 2 would have decent seasons and the fourth might struggle. At least this way, we're armed. I mean, I just think we have to get two arms because even if just one of your "ace" or Morrow or Romero goes down, we'd be screwed again.   

 

[maplesyrup]

OTOH, fine... Let's get that ace... But we're still going to need another quality starter.

 

[Champ Kind]

Personally, I think the Jays would be nuts to not consider Arbencibia a big part of their future and Rasmus is, I think, someone to hold onto as well. 

I agree with Rasmus, at the very least we can say with some authority that Gose hasn't established he can hit enough to be a big leaguer yet, but Arencibia is a guy I very much think they should look into moving. With D'Arnaud behind him Arencibia is someone who could be attractive to another team in a trade and who the Jays won't miss terribly. He'll be 27 next season and he's still not really getting on base at a major league level.

But why aren't you using the same logic on Arencibia as you have on Rasmus?  Isn't Gose, in fact, a more known entity that D'Arnaud?

I don't know, but I find Arencibia a true team guy, a real Toronto guy, and someone who has a personality and character that appears to jive with the rest of the team.  I also think that the Jays need a bat with power in the 6-7 spot, and JP has proven that while average might be a problem he can certainly hit with power.

Endulge me for a minute with a fantasy 2013 batting order:

1. TBD (2 B/LF)
2. Hecheverria (SS)
3. Lawrie (3B)
4. Bautista (RF)
5. Encarnacion (1B/DH)
6. Arencibia (1B/DH)
7. Rasmus (CF)
8. D'arnaud (C)
9. TBD (2 B/LF)

Overall, I tend to agree with Sarge that pitching will be the team's priority.  I'm sceptical that AA will bring in much positional talent.  I'd love to think about adding David Ortiz into the lineup, but my glass-half-empty perscpective is killing my creativity.

 

[bustaheims]

Except that it might. I think if we got a couple guys (looking at more than just this season) on par with Morrow and Romero , I think we'd find that 1 of the 4 would probably have a #1-type season, 2 would have decent seasons and the fourth might struggle. At least this way, we're armed. I mean, I just think we have to get two arms because even if just one of your "ace" or Morrow or Romero goes down, we'd be screwed again. 

But, in one case, you're gambling on close to the best case scenario, whereas the other, you're looking at close to the worst case. The most likely scenario is that A) acquiring a pair of #2 type guys costs the team a ton in prospects - as much or more than adding an ace (#2 type guys are still extremely valuable on the trade market) and B) they don't provide enough improvement to the rotation to justify the cost. Teams generally don't make the playoffs without a #1 type guy unless they have an absolutely elite offence propelling them. Adding a couple more #2 guys (or, most likely, a couple more 2/3 types) just puts the team back where they've been for the better part of the last 20 years - 3rd in the division and out of the playoffs.

 

[bustaheims]

OTOH, fine... Let's get that ace... But we're still going to need another quality starter.

Sure, but it'll be a back of the rotation guy, and they're much easier to find and much cheaper to acquire - and they could already be in the organization.

 

[maplesyrup]

Except that it might. I think if we got a couple guys (looking at more than just this season) on par with Morrow and Romero , I think we'd find that 1 of the 4 would probably have a #1-type season, 2 would have decent seasons and the fourth might struggle. At least this way, we're armed. I mean, I just think we have to get two arms because even if just one of your "ace" or Morrow or Romero goes down, we'd be screwed again. 

But, in one case, you're gambling on close to the best case scenario, whereas the other, you're looking at close to the worst case. The most likely scenario is that A) acquiring a pair of #2 type guys costs the team a ton in prospects - as much or more than adding an ace (#2 type guys are still extremely valuable on the trade market) and B) they don't provide enough improvement to the rotation to justify the cost. Teams generally don't make the playoffs without a #1 type guy unless they have an absolutely elite offence propelling them. Adding a couple more #2 guys (or, most likely, a couple more 2/3 types) just puts the team back where they've been for the better part of the last 20 years - 3rd in the division and out of the playoffs.

I don't know though. Having both a #4 or #5 who has no business starting at the major league level probably hurts us more I would think. Like I said earlier, if you're hell bent for that ace, fine... but we're still going to have to go out and get a guy who can start at or near the bottom of the rotation because I sincerely doubt there's two guys in the system right now that can do it.