2012 Toronto Blue Jays Thread
- Thread starter Darryl
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bustaheims
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Justin said:
Joe Torre and Tony La Russa - two of the most successful managers in recent baseball history - both started their coaching careers managing big league squads. Lou Pinella spent all of one season as a coach before starting his managerial career.
You can throw some big names out there, but that doesn't set a precedent of no-experience managerial hires being a vast success. There's a reason teams look for "experience" as their #1 or near #1 priority when hiring a manager. The Jays are a team frankly in shambles, and I'm not about to bring in a guy with no experience to steer the ship right.bustaheims said:
maplesyrup
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Tim Wallach on #Jays list for manager candidates, Brad Ausmus is not, Jim Tracy and Manny Acta also thought to be out: http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2012/10/28/toronto_blue_jays_managerial_candidates/
Kin
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Justin said:
I think the point being made isn't that experience doesn't matter but that teams are broadening their definition of what experience is relevant to being a big league manager.
When teams are looking for a manager they want to know certain things about him, how he'd handle a pitching staff, what he's like in the clubhouse, how he works with young players and so on and the reality is that Brad Ausmus' 20 years as a Catcher, and a very well regarded one in terms of handling pitching staffs, will tell a team a certain amount about all of those things. Sure, you can say that managing and playing are very different in some respects but the reality is that so is managing and coaching. So to say that Ausmus has "no experience" strikes me as a line of thinking that's quickly falling out of favour. I'd say catching every day is far more relevant experience to running a big league club than, say, being a first base coach(and that's without going into what his duties may have been as a "special advisor" in San Diego).
And there's proof of that around the major leagues. St. Louis hired Mike Matheny without managing/coaching experience and the Cardinals had a very good year. The White Sox hired Robin Ventura, again only with playing experience, and they had a good year too. The Rockies just interviewed Jason Giambi for their job and so on.
The idea that you need managerial or coaching experience to manage in the big leagues has never been true and it's not today. Leaving aside that I think you're exaggerating the "Shambles" the Blue Jays are in the reality is that the only way you're going to know how someone does as manager of a team, regardless of past experiences, is by giving them the job.
bustaheims
Active member
Justin said:
What the Jays need is the best man for the job, regardless of experience level. Discounting guys without coaching experience could very well mean eliminating some of the best candidates for the job.
seahawk
New member
Nik V. Debs said:
Decent managerial record with the Canadian national team. 3rd place at the last 2 World Cup tournaments plus a gold medal at the 2011 Pan Am Games and 6th at the 2008 Bejing Olympics. This is a team that does not play together full time and is a combination of major leaguers as well as prospects. If not as manager, I think Ernie is worth a spot on the next staff.
Part of the criteria of "best man for the job" is experience. You could have an appealing candidate that seems smart and ready for the job, but then falls on his face. Sound familiar? (Hint: John Farrell). At this point in time I'd rather not take a chance on someone unproven. The new hire doesn't necessarily have to have managed a major league ball club before, but they should at the very least have major league coaching experience with a good rapport. Ozzie Guillen has won a World Series, Demarlo Hale has years of experience and has gotten rave reviews, Brian Butterfield has put in his time as a coach and is well-liked by virtually everyone, and Tim Wallach has a good managing record in the minors as well as major league coaching experience.bustaheims said:
We know who Guillen is, and how bombastic he can be. He's a different kind of guy. Regardless, any manager we have that hasn't managed before is going to be learning on the job, but the learning curve won't be as steep for experienced candidates. According to Sportsnet the Jays' list of candidates doesn't contain Brad Ausmus, it's good to know the ball club agrees with me on this one.Nik V. Debs said:
Could we be letting a great candidate slip under the rug? Sure. As I said earlier, it's a crapshoot trying to see who would be the best man for the job.
Kin
New member
Justin said:
They also say that the list of candidates is developing and that there are reasons to believe Ausmus isn't interested in the job anyways, so I wouldn't be too quick to think that it has to do with any sort of philosophical match just yet.
Anyways, I think you're overestimating the difficulty involved with being a major league manager. I doubt it's all that steep a learning curve for anyone. As has been pointed out, lots of first year guys without managing/coaching experience do just fine.
Kin
New member
Justin said:
Well, again, that assumes that being a manager is something that is drastically different from just knowing the game and being able to work with people. For the most part the differences between managers tactically can be easily asked with straightforward questions. When would you hit and run or what do you think about sacrifice bunts or how would you work a bullpen. These are things that Ausmus, being a smart baseball guy, will have developed opinions on and that can be easily found out during the course of an interview. They can even be relatively philosophical like asking whether he tends to rely on numbers vs. gut instinct. Opinions on how to manage a team are not exclusively developed while managing teams.
And as for the managing players or personalities aspect of the job, we're back to the point where from what I know about the game there's everything to suggest that Ausmus' years actually being in a major league clubhouse are just as valuable at determining his ability to do that as coaching first base would be. The ability to manage people, to be a good leader, those are things that can emerge without doing those things as well. That Ausmus has become the managerial candidate he is without spending time on a coaching staff should probably tell you that he's very highly regarded on those points.
bustaheims
Active member
Butterfield has left the organization to become the 3rd base coach in Boston. So, it's probably safe to say he's no longer a candidate for the manager position in Toronto.
Corn Flake
New member
bustaheims said:
That's too bad. He was supposedly very highly regarded by the players.
Nice that Farrell not only gets to walk but gets to take the better of the coaches too. Anything ELSE you would like to fleece from us while you are at it, Boston?
Could only hope that the pitching coaches were wanted too. Shockingly, they aren't.
bustaheims
Active member
Corn Flake said:That's too bad. He was supposedly very highly regarded by the players.
Nice that Farrell not only gets to walk but gets to take the better of the coaches too. Anything ELSE you would like to fleece from us while you are at it, Boston?
Could only hope that the pitching coaches were wanted too. Shockingly, they aren't.
Though, at the same time, you sort of have to question the wisdom in taking such a large part of the coaching staff of a team that has struggled with things like consistency, plate discipline, and other areas where coaching can very much be implicated.
Corn Flake
New member
Nik V. Debs said:
IMO, the Jays need to bring in a STRONG personality who holds these guys accountable. Someone who can handle the Brett Lawrie's... guys loaded with potential and emotion who need to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck sometimes and told to play with discipline, or tell a Escobar to stop writing things... anything at all.. on his eye black... A manager who has the stones to tell Bautista to stop staring down umpires when he doesn't like the call.
If that guy is Ausmus, then give him the keys. He's a former catcher, which seems to fit the requirement for success based on this year's championship series' teams.
Champ Kind
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For me, the most obvious choice. Doesn't take BS, understands and can likely coach young Latin players, was a catcher, has a brother intrinsically linked to Toronto, and, heck, he loves Cleveland. The latter says as much about his character as anything, I think. :
maplesyrup
New member
I'm not saying Jr. would be a bad choice but we all know what happened the last time we hired a guy in love with another organization. - Just sayin'
Corn Flake
New member
The Sarge said:
I'm sure it's a a love affair that can be changed pretty quick. I mean, it is Cleveland we are talking about here.
I like him as a choice as well but wonder why he's been passed over for so many jobs so far.