2015 NHL Entry Draft

[hobarth]

Please show us the contradictions you allude to

One moment you spout BPA, the next you say we need to draft defencemen because defense wins championships.

As for the trolling part, you admit to not having seen any of these guys play, then say Hanifin is amazing but Strome and Marner suck as a key point to your "leafs must draft Hanifin" point.  If that's not trolling, then that's just sad.

Do you think that anyone on this forum has viewed these 3 players enough to actually formulate an opinion based on their actual knowledge or do you think they've made there assessments based on the same info that I have. In the small sample times I have seen the 3 players I have come to the conclusion that Nick Merkley deserves consideration in these rankings, believe me I've not seen any of these players demonstrate the combo of heart and IQ in any greater abundance than Merkley. I live in Kelowna.

I think anyone who seriously thinks that denizens of forums can be challenged as trolls because they don't have intimate knowledge of the players they discuss, are trolls. 

 

[Kin]

I think that Tampa and Carolina were flash in the pan Stanley Cup Winners, something that can be explained by injuries or even a brief inexplicable hot goalie or hot team at the right time, your logic suggests that winning during a brief time means that was a deserving Cup winner but I think that the quality of the entire season plus playoffs speaks far more of the quality of the teams than somehow fluking a 20 game season.

No, my logic suggests that winning the cup is winning the cup and that there aren't asterisks for it. I don't want to cheer for a team like Nashville. 

TO lately starts every season on a 20 game hot streak yet fails to make the playoffs, TO hasn't been a playoff team no matter what the first 20 games tells us. If TO happened to squeak into the playoffs  and then had the same brief hot streak to win the Cup but failed to make the playoffs the following season, I would question the credibility of their accomplishment.

Really? I'd be deliriously happy that the team I'd followed since I could barely walk had won the Stanley Cup. But different strokes I suppose.

Kuba in his prime was a darn good d-man, Kuba on TO was well past his prime, TB also had Dan Boyle so they had a reasonable defense and they also had Khabibulin in goal so the bedrock was there to support the brilliant forwards. At this point TO is nearly totally without any quality d-men, much of that has to do with RC's coaching, so we need to lay the foundation for success which shouldn't be grasping at the most attractive straw, it should be drafting the BPA.

First off, no, Rielly and Gardiner are good players. Second, Boyle and Kubina were as good defensemen respectively as guys like Gomez, Arnott and Nieuwendyk were centers for the Devils.

I always want TO to take the BPA but since d-men spend more time on the ice than anyone but the goalie and a potential franchise d-man is available but his stats don't hold up to the sexier Junior players in part because he plays against men, give us the BPA which isn't always the guy with the best stats, I haven't ever read anything that suggests Hanifin isn't a slam dunk draft choice but many fans seem seduced by the inflated stats of Strome with McDavid or the stats of the small damaged goods Marner who's linemates are Domi and Dvorak.

Strome's numbers didn't dip at all with McDavid out of the line-up. Lots of players have played with excellent linemates before and didn't put up Marner's numbers. They're rated in the top 5 or 6 by virtually every scouting service there is in a very good draft. They're not bad prospects. Prefer Hanifin all you want but constantly running down Marner and Strome when A) they're consensus top 10 picks and B) you haven't seen them just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

The difference between a strong defense and a more questionable one can be seen in the differences in LA and Chic, LA barely squeaks into the playoffs yet wins Cups, Chic cruises into the playoffs and wins cups, Chic can cruise because of their defense but LA outside of Doughty has a far more challenged defensive unit, enduring success is enhanced by a great  balance of offense and defense, yes there are always exceptions as you have so eloquently pointed out but those are simply exceptions. I would say that LA's forwards are superior to Chic but the balance on LA is not as genuinely supportable as Chic.

Alright, now I'm just convinced you don't really know what you're talking about. LA's defense isn't challenged. LA is terrific at preventing goals. LA has been a significantly better team in terms of goals allowed than Chicago over the last five years and before you say that's attributable to Quick, Quick's numbers have not been significantly better than Crawford's. Jake Muzzin is probably a better defenseman than anyone on Chicago besides Keith. Chicago has scored more goals than LA because they have much better forwards.

Seriously, I'm with Avro. I'm now just hoping you're trolling.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Re: Marner with Domi and Dvorak.

I'm under the impression that he scored at a higher clip without Domi. LK would know better.

You don't outscore Stamkos, Tavares and Seguin in your draft year unless you're a legit prospect.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Please show us the contradictions you allude to

One moment you spout BPA, the next you say we need to draft defencemen because defense wins championships.

As for the trolling part, you admit to not having seen any of these guys play, then say Hanifin is amazing but Strome and Marner suck as a key point to your "leafs must draft Hanifin" point.  If that's not trolling, then that's just sad.

Do you think that anyone on this forum has viewed these 3 players enough to actually formulate an opinion based on their actual knowledge or do you think they've made there assessments based on the same info that I have. In the small sample times I have seen the 3 players I have come to the conclusion that Nick Merkley deserves consideration in these rankings, believe me I've not seen any of these players demonstrate the combo of heart and IQ in any greater abundance than Merkley. I live in Kelowna.

I think anyone who seriously thinks that denizens of forums can be challenged as trolls because they don't have intimate knowledge of the players they discuss, are trolls.

But you haven't seen any of the players so Merkley wins by......... default? WTF?

 

[Kin]

But you haven't seen any of the players so Merkley wins by default? WTF?

It's simple. Hanifin is rated by a lot of scouts as being the #3 prospect in the draft, so he clearly is. Marner and Strome are rated by most of those scouts as the 4th and 5th best prospects in the draft but that doesn't count.

 

[Tigger]

Kuba (....?)

...

At this point TO is nearly totally without any quality d-men, much of that has to do with RC's coaching

Alrighty then.

 

[L K]

Re: Marner with Domi and Dvorak.

I'm under the impression that he scored at a higher clip without Domi. LK would know better.

You don't outscore Stamkos, Tavares and Seguin in your draft year unless you're a legit prospect.

Marner and Dvorak played with Domi for stretches but it wasn't the most consistent line for the Knights.  Where they played together most often was on the powerplay where they were absolutely dominant.  I'm struggling to understand how Marner playing with good players is a knock against him however.  He lapped the rest of the league outside of Strome and McDavid.
Also where is this 'damaged goods' line coming from exactly?

I'm all for pumping up Hanifin.  He's a top notch prospect but if you don't watch the player, don't comment on them as if you know the slightest thing about them.

 

[hobarth]

I think that Tampa and Carolina were flash in the pan Stanley Cup Winners, something that can be explained by injuries or even a brief inexplicable hot goalie or hot team at the right time, your logic suggests that winning during a brief time means that was a deserving Cup winner but I think that the quality of the entire season plus playoffs speaks far more of the quality of the teams than somehow fluking a 20 game season.

No, my logic suggests that winning the cup is winning the cup and that there aren't asterisks for it. I don't want to cheer for a team like Nashville. 

TO lately starts every season on a 20 game hot streak yet fails to make the playoffs, TO hasn't been a playoff team no matter what the first 20 games tells us. If TO happened to squeak into the playoffs  and then had the same brief hot streak to win the Cup but failed to make the playoffs the following season, I would question the credibility of their accomplishment.

Really? I'd be deliriously happy that the team I'd followed since I could barely walk had won the Stanley Cup. But different strokes I suppose.

Kuba in his prime was a darn good d-man, Kuba on TO was well past his prime, TB also had Dan Boyle so they had a reasonable defense and they also had Khabibulin in goal so the bedrock was there to support the brilliant forwards. At this point TO is nearly totally without any quality d-men, much of that has to do with RC's coaching, so we need to lay the foundation for success which shouldn't be grasping at the most attractive straw, it should be drafting the BPA.

First off, no, Rielly and Gardiner are good players. Second, Boyle and Kubina were as good defensemen respectively as guys like Gomez, Arnott and Nieuwendyk were centers for the Devils.

I always want TO to take the BPA but since d-men spend more time on the ice than anyone but the goalie and a potential franchise d-man is available but his stats don't hold up to the sexier Junior players in part because he plays against men, give us the BPA which isn't always the guy with the best stats, I haven't ever read anything that suggests Hanifin isn't a slam dunk draft choice but many fans seem seduced by the inflated stats of Strome with McDavid or the stats of the small damaged goods Marner who's linemates are Domi and Dvorak.

Strome's numbers didn't dip at all with McDavid out of the line-up. Lots of players have played with excellent linemates before and didn't put up Marner's numbers. They're rated in the top 5 or 6 by virtually every scouting service there is in a very good draft. They're not bad prospects. Prefer Hanifin all you want but constantly running down Marner and Strome when A) they're consensus top 10 picks and B) you haven't seen them just makes you look like you have no idea what you're talking about.

The difference between a strong defense and a more questionable one can be seen in the differences in LA and Chic, LA barely squeaks into the playoffs yet wins Cups, Chic cruises into the playoffs and wins cups, Chic can cruise because of their defense but LA outside of Doughty has a far more challenged defensive unit, enduring success is enhanced by a great  balance of offense and defense, yes there are always exceptions as you have so eloquently pointed out but those are simply exceptions. I would say that LA's forwards are superior to Chic but the balance on LA is not as genuinely supportable as Chic.

Alright, now I'm just convinced you don't really know what you're talking about. LA's defense isn't challenged. LA is terrific at preventing goals. LA has been a significantly better team in terms of goals allowed than Chicago over the last five years and before you say that's attributable to Quick, Quick's numbers have not been significantly better than Crawford's. Jake Muzzin is probably a better defenseman than anyone on Chicago besides Keith. Chicago has scored more goals than LA because they have much better forwards.

Seriously, I'm with Avro. I'm now just hoping you're trolling.

I read somewhere that the NYR GM sent draft choices and prospects packing to pick up marginally better players to support their winning the Cup in '93, the GM was fired with the fan's blessings within 2 years because they had an old team who's future looked bleak and the inevitable decline was happening, so thinking that after nearly 50 years one cup win will satisfy you, well really. I want a team like Chicago or LA or Detroit, teams that are perennially in the hunt not one year flash in the pans.

I don't think I ever said that I'd cheer for Nashville, I simply acknowledged their ability to build a better team than TO, as TO is presently constituted I don't want to cheer for TO and I surely don't want to watch TO go thru the same best of intentions screw ups we are so familiar with.

I often hear how good (scared of his own shadow) Gardiner is and I wonder, have Leaf fans forgotten what quality d-men actually look like? I counted 8 games that gave me hope for Rielly but I'm quite sure not only was he not the best player drafted in his year, he's not even the best d-man.

I guess I should have appreciated that your knowledge of the merits of Kubina and Boyle would far exceed mine, oh well.

Part of LA's problem is that their game is so structured that offensive creativity is stiffled because the d isn't championship quality, the forwards are strictly coached on the benefits of defensive play and that's a huge part of the reason LA has such a difficult time scoring even tho they have such accomplished offensively gifted forwards. How is it possible that LA with that stacked forwards corp can't score enough goals to make the playoffs, I think I know.

Again another insider acknowledgement of one player's superiority over others, amazing considering Chic just won it's 3rd cup. I think that Leddy is a better d-man than Muzzin but in any case both would exceed anything TO has.

Strome's numbers with McDavid in the lineup were around 2 pts per game, without and while having more icetime 1.2 per, so I don't know where you came by your stats, 1.2 per isn't bad but a far cry from 2 per, coincidence or fact. 

Nieuwendyk was 35 in his first season with NJ and Arnotts stats indicate he was 2nd line quality along the lines of Bozak, NJ was a more successful Nashville built basically around Niedermayer and Rafalski, plus with superior goaltending and just enough offense to maximize the superiority of their defense.

 

[Kin]

I counted 8 games that gave me hope for Rielly but I'm quite sure not only was he not the best player drafted in his year, he's not even the best d-man.

Truly a horrific failure then. I mean, given that he was the fifth player chosen and the third defenseman taken, I think a fair benchmark for whether or not he's "good" is whether he's the best player in his class.

Again another insider acknowledgement of one player's superiority over others, amazing considering Chic just won it's 3rd cup. I think that Leddy is a better d-man than Muzzin but in any case both would exceed anything TO has.

Um, great. Leddy isn't on the Blackhawks but it's a heck of an opinion.

Strome's numbers with McDavid in the lineup were around 2 pts per game, without and while having more icetime 1.2 per, so I don't know where you came by your stats, 1.2 per isn't bad but a far cry from 2 per, coincidence or fact. 

Well, neither because it's not true. Strome scored 1.67 ppg with McDavid out.

http://thehockeywriters.com/dylan-strome-great-player-or-trendy-pick/

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Strome's numbers with McDavid in the lineup were around 2 pts per game, without and while having more icetime 1.2 per, so I don't know where you came by your stats, 1.2 per isn't bad but a far cry from 2 per, coincidence or fact.

Strome averaged 2.0 points per game with McDavid, 1.67 points per game without. 35 points in 21 games as the top line centre when McDavid wasn't in the line-up. Small sample size sure, but that's roughly what Stamkos and Seguin put up in their draft years.

 

[hobarth]

Re: Marner with Domi and Dvorak.

I'm under the impression that he scored at a higher clip without Domi. LK would know better.

You don't outscore Stamkos, Tavares and Seguin in your draft year unless you're a legit prospect.

Marner and Dvorak played with Domi for stretches but it wasn't the most consistent line for the Knights.  Where they played together most often was on the powerplay where they were absolutely dominant.  I'm struggling to understand how Marner playing with good players is a knock against him however.  He lapped the rest of the league outside of Strome and McDavid.
Also where is this 'damaged goods' line coming from exactly?

I'm all for pumping up Hanifin.  He's a top notch prospect but if you don't watch the player, don't comment on them as if you know the slightest thing about them.

You can't see how a decent prospect's stats can be artificially inflated by who he plays with, really, you don't think that JVR's stats are not propped up by playing with Kessel? Crouse is a prime example of a player who's ability is supposedly better than his stats because his center, the only decent center on his team had prolonged injury spells so his stats were expectedly deflated.

You know I hadn't ever seen Crosby play a single junior game but I knew he was bound for greatness, eh, my bad, you think he succeeded in spite of my inability to observe him, I wonder how I knew he was going to be great.

Bozak plays on TO's 1st line, is he 1st line quality, not from my observation, should he be playing on the 1st line, well yes because TO has no one better, does playing on the 1st line make him a better player, no, I think TO plays him there because of depth problems not because of his suitability, this surprisingly can happen on other teams. Now I'm not saying Marner is the next Bozak but the quality of his linemates definitely affects his stats and even his perceived value.

Marner only played 7 games during the OHL playoffs due to concussion issues, damaged goods.

But you haven't seen any of the players so Merkley wins by default? WTF?

It's simple. Hanifin is rated by a lot of scouts as being the #3 prospect in the draft, so he clearly is. Marner and Strome are rated by most of those scouts as the 4th and 5th best prospects in the draft but that doesn't count.

Are we still talking about inconsistencies in thought processes. I find it amazing you can't follow my very plainly laid out thoughts, I will not be pleased if Hanifin is passed over by TO if he is available because I would suspect that the forwards we've discussed are sexier but not necessarily better. I have read many differing I assume inside info that suggest TO will take Strome or Marner over Hanifin, I don't approve, unless there's a reasonable basis to assume that they are better than Hanifin, the bulk of my reading firmly suggest that Hanifin is without a doubt the 3rd BPA in this draft. The only reason a team might not take the BPA is because they feel that the lesser talent fills a perceived need .   

 

[Kin]

You know I hadn't ever seen Crosby play a single junior game but I knew he was bound for greatness, eh, my bad, you think he succeeded in spite of my inability to observe him, I wonder how I knew he was going to be great.

Goodnight everybody!

 

[hobarth]

Strome's numbers with McDavid in the lineup were around 2 pts per game, without and while having more icetime 1.2 per, so I don't know where you came by your stats, 1.2 per isn't bad but a far cry from 2 per, coincidence or fact.

Strome averaged 2.0 points per game with McDavid, 1.67 points per game without. 35 points in 21 games as the top line centre when McDavid wasn't in the line-up. Small sample size sure, but that's roughly what Stamkos and Seguin put up in their draft years.

So his stats are equal to Stamkos so a natural extrapolation should be he's as good if not better, Stamkos is a superstar so naturally Strome should be in the mix with Eichel and McDavid as a hands down franchise cornerstones yet Hanifin is generally rated higher, a true puzzler, why isn't he rated above Hanifin and in Eichel and McDavid stratosphere. Is it not possible that sometimes stats don't tell the whole story?

In any event if he is truly better than Hanifin TO should draft him, without a doubt. Seems to me Connor Brown won the OHL scoring race last year but he wasn't able to make the Leafs or even dominate in the AHL, he did alrite but definitely less than we hoped.

 

[L K]

Strome's numbers with McDavid in the lineup were around 2 pts per game, without and while having more icetime 1.2 per, so I don't know where you came by your stats, 1.2 per isn't bad but a far cry from 2 per, coincidence or fact.

Strome averaged 2.0 points per game with McDavid, 1.67 points per game without. 35 points in 21 games as the top line centre when McDavid wasn't in the line-up. Small sample size sure, but that's roughly what Stamkos and Seguin put up in their draft years.

So his stats are equal to Stamkos so a natural extrapolation should be he's as good if not better, Stamkos is a superstar so naturally Strome should be in the mix with Eichel and McDavid as a hands down franchise cornerstones yet Hanifin is generally rated higher, a true puzzler, why isn't he rated above Hanifin and in Eichel and McDavid stratosphere. Is it not possible that sometimes stats don't tell the whole story?

In any event if he is truly better than Hanifin TO should draft him, without a doubt. Seems to me Connor Brown won the OHL scoring race last year but he wasn't able to make the Leafs or even dominate in the AHL, he did alrite but definitely less than we hoped.

Connor Brown lead the OHL in scoring as a 20 year old.  Marner and Strome are 17. 

As for Connor Brown and his "alrite but definitely less than we hoped" season...seriously?  He was 5th in rookie goal scoring, 1st in assists and 1st in points.  He was 10th in overall league scoring.  If you were expecting more than that out of a 6th round draft pick in his rookie AHL season you have a very strange measure for expectations.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Stop feeding the troll ffs lads.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

You know I hadn't ever seen Crosby play a single junior game but I knew he was bound for greatness, eh, my bad, you think he succeeded in spite of my inability to observe him, I wonder how I knew he was going to be great.

Goodnight everybody!

Mind-blowingly foolish stuff there. Wow.

 

[Highlander]

This is a ship of fools or a s___tload of fools 8)

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Mock draft from McKeens:

http://www.mckeenshockey.com/uncategorized/wheelers-2015-nhl-mock-draft/

Has the Leafs taking Marner and Sprong. Would be completely a-ok with that.

 

[herman]

Mock draft from McKeens:

http://www.mckeenshockey.com/uncategorized/wheelers-2015-nhl-mock-draft/

Has the Leafs taking Marner and Sprong. Would be completely a-ok with that.

Yes, that'd be a great start.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Mock draft from McKeens:

http://www.mckeenshockey.com/uncategorized/wheelers-2015-nhl-mock-draft/

Has the Leafs taking Marner and Sprong. Would be completely a-ok with that.

Yes, that'd be a great start.

I dunno...both CHL guys...cronyism...