2017-18 Toronto Maple Leafs - General Discussion

[rdowdall]

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2017/9/7/16253088/toronto-maple-leafs-forward-lines-leo-komarov-james-van-riemsdyk-patrick-marleau-dealine-trade

This does not get talked about enough:

Forward lineups are not a report card. They aren't a marker of status. You can't deal out players from a list of who is best down to who isn't and produce a perfect lineup. That's how you get people suggesting van Riemsdyk should play with Matthews and Nylander.

I'm not sure if it was ever conclusively determined if they'd need three pucks or just two to make that work, but the charts contained in that very story show you that van Riemsdyk is one of the highest volume shooters on the Leafs. Hooking him up with the pass-first Bozak and the pass-often Marner makes more sense than having him fight Auston "no, I'll score that myself, thanks" Matthews and William "I love having the puck" Nylander for some time with the rubber.

And that's exactly why Marleau might not work out with Matthews. He has a very similar offensive style to van Riemsdyk, and he shoots from very tight to the net like Matthews does. He does not shoot at quite the high rate of JvR, but it's close. Marleau has also spent a lot of years playing with the grand champion of pass-first centres in Joe Thornton.

Marleau - Matthews - Marner
Leivo - Kadri - Kapanen
Johnsson - Nylander - Brown
Rychel - Moore - Hyman
Soshnikov

The never-going-to-happen, all-fun-all-the-time lineup:

Leivo - Matthews - Nylander
Komorov - Kadri - Kapanen
JVR - Bozak - Marner
Hyman - Marleau - Brown
Moore

Gardiner - Zaitsev
Reilly - Carrick
Hainsey - Liljegren

I'd like to see that 4th line lining up against the fourth liners of any other team.

Done with Marleau already eh?

 

[AvroArrow]

The never-going-to-happen, all-fun-all-the-time lineup:

Leivo - Matthews - Nylander
Komorov - Kadri - Kapanen
JVR - Bozak - Marner
Hyman - Marleau - Brown
Moore

Gardiner - Zaitsev
Reilly - Carrick
Hainsey - Liljegren

I'd like to see that 4th line lining up against the fourth liners of any other team.

I'd make a couple swaps:. Brown and Kapanen, Hyman and Leivo

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Komorov - Kadri - Brown
JVR - Bozak - Marner
Leivo - Marleau - Kapanen
Moore

I know that means another year of Hyman with Matthews, but try to line match that lineup!

 

[CarltonTheBear]

For what it's worth, Bob McKenzie said the other day that (in his personal opinion) he thinks Marleau will start with Kadri, and the other two lines will remain intact from last season.

 

[herman]

For what it's worth, Bob McKenzie said the other day that (in his personal opinion) he thinks Marleau will start with Kadri, and the other two lines will remain intact from last season.

I just want to see our UFAs traded.

But I wouldn't be against this to start the season:

Hyman - Matthews - Nylander
Marleau - Kadri - Brown
JvR - Bozak - Marner
Komarov - Moore - Kapanen

 

[Arn]

Is there really any point in speculating on lines and not including Martin? I mean it's nice to dream and all....

 

[herman]

Is there really any point in speculating on lines and not including Martin? I mean it's nice to dream and all....

Have you not seen me beat this dead horse? I only care insofar as he is clogging up opportunity for someone I feel could be a better contributor to the scoresheet.

Anyway, Martin might be better this year as long as he just focuses on forechecking fast to get the puck to the front of the net.

 

[Arn]

He's a real good pro though.

Intangibles.

Obviously.

 

[herman]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/shilton-matthews-looked-like-his-old-self-on-the-ice~1204562

Did you spot Connor Carrick?

 

[herman]

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/08/torontos-experience-with-daniel-winnik-should-inspire-rebuilding-teams/

Developmentally, Winnik?s value is a little harder to figure because we can?t go back and see what would have happened to Kozun and Ashton and Nylander and Brown if they?d been given more of an opportunity. With the value of hindsight, though, it looks like having a veteran ahead of those players didn?t hurt the real prospects and didn?t derail anybody who would have ended up mattering to the organization.

Okay fine, roll with Martin. If he could actually PK, I would probably have a much more favourable view here, but we've got some very interesting PK ponies already.

 

[Kin]

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/08/torontos-experience-with-daniel-winnik-should-inspire-rebuilding-teams/

Developmentally, Winnik?s value is a little harder to figure because we can?t go back and see what would have happened to Kozun and Ashton and Nylander and Brown if they?d been given more of an opportunity. With the value of hindsight, though, it looks like having a veteran ahead of those players didn?t hurt the real prospects and didn?t derail anybody who would have ended up mattering to the organization.

Okay fine, roll with Martin. If he could actually PK, I would probably have a much more favourable view here, but we've got some very interesting PK ponies already.

I don't get this:

There?s a common misconception that rebuilding teams should clear the decks for their prospects, giving them plenty of playing time and avoiding bringing in mid-tier veterans to compete with them for minutes. It?s a problematic approach from a development perspective, as internal competition can help players develop and ?over-ripening? prospects is often preferable to baptizing them by fire anyway.

Since when is that true? As far as I know the opposite is true. A rebuilding team should be limited to prospects and mid-tier veterans you can peel off and trade for picks. The players of questionable purpose on a rebuilding team are guys like JVR or Bozak who make the team better, hurting their draft chances, but don't figure to be around long term.

 

[herman]

I don't get this:

There?s a common misconception that rebuilding teams should clear the decks for their prospects, giving them plenty of playing time and avoiding bringing in mid-tier veterans to compete with them for minutes. It?s a problematic approach from a development perspective, as internal competition can help players develop and ?over-ripening? prospects is often preferable to baptizing them by fire anyway.

Since when is that true? As far as I know the opposite is true. A rebuilding team should be limited to prospects and mid-tier veterans you can peel off and trade for picks. The players of questionable purpose on a rebuilding team are guys like JVR or Bozak who make the team better, hurting their draft chances, but don't figure to be around long term.

I get why you don't get it.

I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

 

[Coco-puffs]

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/09/08/torontos-experience-with-daniel-winnik-should-inspire-rebuilding-teams/

Developmentally, Winnik?s value is a little harder to figure because we can?t go back and see what would have happened to Kozun and Ashton and Nylander and Brown if they?d been given more of an opportunity. With the value of hindsight, though, it looks like having a veteran ahead of those players didn?t hurt the real prospects and didn?t derail anybody who would have ended up mattering to the organization.

Okay fine, roll with Martin. If he could actually PK, I would probably have a much more favourable view here, but we've got some very interesting PK ponies already.

I don't get this:

There?s a common misconception that rebuilding teams should clear the decks for their prospects, giving them plenty of playing time and avoiding bringing in mid-tier veterans to compete with them for minutes. It?s a problematic approach from a development perspective, as internal competition can help players develop and ?over-ripening? prospects is often preferable to baptizing them by fire anyway.

Since when is that true? As far as I know the opposite is true. A rebuilding team should be limited to prospects and mid-tier veterans you can peel off and trade for picks. The players of questionable purpose on a rebuilding team are guys like JVR or Bozak who make the team better, hurting their draft chances, but don't figure to be around long term.

Well, on JvR I agree.  He may have hurt our chances at getting Matthews if he wasn't injured for alot of 2015-2016.  Then again, I bet they may have traded him at the deadline that year if he was healthy. 

Bozak, more than a mid-tier vet?  I don't think he moves the needle much if you are a lottery-bound team. 

 

[Kin]

I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

In Edmonton they didn't throw young players into the lineup in favour of cheap fill-ins? It seems like they were pretty eager to give younger a guys a chance.

 

[herman]

I believe his stated misconception is from living in Edmonton, where I'm guessing that is exactly what they did. To be honest, the notion of filling the roster gaps with cheap, sellable parts was a bit foreign to my experience prior to the Leaf's teardown.

In Edmonton they didn't throw young players into the lineup in favour of cheap fill-ins? It seems like they were pretty eager to give younger a guys a chance.

Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

 

[Kin]

Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

So he thinks it's a common misconception that people think teams should probably do what Edmonton did?

And is that even true in Edmonton? They had Horcoff and Hemsky, they brought back Ryan Smyth, they had a bunch of mediocre veterans. Sure they were bad but there's nothing particularly exceptional about the ages of their players for a rebuilding team.

 

[herman]

Maybe I phrased it wrong or I'm misreading what you're saying. Edmonton's rebuild was LOOK AT ALL OUR FIRST ROUNDERS and then proceeded to play them out of their depth with limited to no insulation (a la the misconception). Roster spots were gifted to their prospects.

So he thinks it's a common misconception that people think teams should probably do what Edmonton did?

And is that even true in Edmonton? They had Horcoff and Hemsky, they brought back Ryan Smyth, they had a bunch of mediocre veterans. Sure they were bad but there's nothing particularly exceptional about the ages of their players for a rebuilding team.

That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

 

[Kin]

That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

You are going to admirable lengths to defend a flawed and lazy premise.

 

[herman]

That's my guess. I didn't bother to look up their rosters though. All I remember is that their 1OAs were touted as franchise savers (even after the first two didn't?). Maybe it's a Nation Network comments thing. There's a really interesting and jarring disconnect between the article authors and the commentors on TLN, like two distinct communities in the same space.

You are going to admirable lengths to defend a flawed and lazy premise.

It's a good measure of how my workday is progressing.

 

[Kin]

Bozak, more than a mid-tier vet?  I don't think he moves the needle much if you are a lottery-bound team.

Yeah, I mean only in the sense that I think he's a pretty good #2 C option for a bad team and he doesn't really have a long term future here. It's not leaps and bounds. He's not, you know, Parenteau or someone.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The lack of GDT for the game in 40 minutes is highly offensive.