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2023-24 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

herman said:
Latest 32 Thoughts Podcast: this was stupid of me to transcribe by hand lol (so any mistakes are mine; EF is hard to transcribe)
What's going on with William Nylander?
EF: I wrote something today, and nobody disputed it. There's a deal there. There's a deal there and it's ready to get done. And I've had several people tell me, that what they believe, and I believe this information, and if the answer was 'yes, we take the deal', then it can get done very quickly. I don't think that's wrong.

So the Maple Leafs, in the summer, I think they're in the 8s, 9s. The Nylander camp, including the agent, was like that's just not gonna do it. [...] Toronto, they can see that he's earned it; he's done it; he's on pace for career highs in goals, assists, and points; he's playing two minutes more a night than he has previously in his career. The other night against LA he's on the ice protecting the empty netter, we haven't seen him do that a lot. William Nylander has done everything here to earn this new deal. They see it.

I think the other thing here is, the Maple Leafs recognize that because of that, they're going to have to go higher than they wanted to go. And I think that they are prepared to do that, but there's always a limit. And I think that what happens is, that you move into that area, and because it's a negotiation, the group negotiating against you, they always try to squeeze. The Maple Leafs have moved, and they have moved much closer to Nylander's area where he'd hoped to be.

Now there's always a limit, there's always a point where you'll say no, we're not going to do that. And where we have to get to here I believe is the point where the negotiation stops and everybody just realizes they're going as far as they're willing to go, and either everybody says yes, or they don't. And we're not at that point yet.

You know, Toronto wants this done. They stepped this up a little bit before Christmas because they want certainty before the deadline. This not just about re-signing Nylander, this is about how they're going to shape their roster now and for years to come. They don't want to trade their 1st rounder, they don't have a lot of picks, they don't want to trade Cowan, they don't want to trade Minten, they just don't have a lot of assets. And their preference is to trade for people with term. They would rather not do rentals, they'd rather do term or someone they know they can sign.

But in order to do that, you've gotta know, even with the cap going up, what Nylander's numbers going to be; how much room do you have? So I think they've just decided, we're doing this; we're getting it done; we concede; we're in; and we just need to know it's over.

Now there's 4 yeses that have to come here. The Leafs said as long as the number doesn't get to where they won't do it, they're in. Nylander [...], he's very receptive to this. They're in his ballpark. The agent's not talking, but if there was nothing here, the agent would be letting people know there is nothing here. In my history, that's the way it goes.

And then we come to Michael Nylander, the dad. [...] He was a player, he played a long time, he knows the business, he's very much a part of this, everybody knows it. And the entire industry kind of knows him. And I don't say this as a bad thing, but he has a vision of what he sees William's worth as, and he provides that vision. He's very blunt about it. And I think that's kind of what everyone's kind of looking at here: when do all four yeses align? And I think the only danger here, cuz I think everybody wants this done: I think the player wants this done, I think the team wants it done, I think the agent wants it done -- the only danger zone here is: does it ever get to a point where as much as the Leafs have moved, it doesn't get to a space where they can agree and the Leafs just say you know what we can't go there. And I think, and the Leafs are being super careful about this, but I think they feel they've budged a lot, and now Nylander has to budge a little bit too. And if that happens, this is going to get done. From what I understand now, there is no reason that this contract shouldn't happen. I don't believe William Nylander is lying when he says he wants to be in Toronto and no where else. If I didn't believe that I would say we've got a problem, but I do beleive that, and from what I understand here, there's no reason it shouldn't occur.
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Well done Herman. Appreciate your effort
 
Seconded, herman.

I'll just observe that it's never a good thing when The Dad gets involved.  And this one seems to have a rep for being ... assertive.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Seconded, herman.

I'll just observe that it's never a good thing when The Dad gets involved.  And this one seems to have a rep for being ... assertive.
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Marner's, Willy's, Lindros'...never goes well
 
https://x.com/sportsnet/status/1743693916984230202
I know he?s the target demographic, but it still feels like a big oof
 
If people want to pick up the discussion started in the GDT comparing entertainment value vs. Cup-winning in the context of Nylander's reported contract, have at it. 

In the GDT I said I am OK with an overpayment because I value nightly entertainment as much or more than playing the kind of hockey that seems to maximize your Cup chances.
 
Moved from game day
RedLeaf said:
This is an exciting team to watch. No question. However, this is also the closest shot we?ve had to win it all, at least talent wise, since the Gilmour days in the early 90?s.

They really need to do whatever it takes to put this team over the top. The best way I can see to accomplish that is to trade some high end offence for high end defence. Make them tighter, more well rounded and tougher opponents to play against in the playoffs.  They need to be better defensively, even if it means taking away from the high flying offence they have.

I really hope this is what Treliving has in mind and that signing Nylander isn?t a sign the organization is happy to just run it all back again?.Pay the forwards and fill defensive holes as needed. That works fine for the regular season , but hasn?t done much for them come playoff time.

They need an entire new mindset here.
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If Nylander's deal (assuming it is really done) has a no move clause like the others (I strongly expect it would), the top 5 forwards and Rielly, cannot be traded unless the player agrees. After next season, Tavares' deal expires so that should free up some money. But Marner will be negotiating without the threat of trade to collect his ransom.

In the interim, prospect cupboard is fairly bare as are their top draft picks. This season and next are going to be a challenge. After that, as the cap goes up, the top players salaries will get a little more cost effective relative to the league until their talent starts to taper off.

If this signing is verified and they do not want to lose Marner for nothing, they're pretty much locked in on Matthews, Nylander & Marner for the four seasons that follow this one.
 
I'm still hoping this is a McDavid-like situation where terms of his deal were leaked and he ended up taking less at the last minute. Granted there's like a 1% chance of it happening.

I have issues with the numbers and how it will effect the team, but that stuff can all wait until things are official. Regardless I'm glad that Willy is trending toward spending his entire career as Leaf.
 
The whole "Cup vs entertainment" debate is quite interesting. I would trade all of Nylander/Matthews/Marner and be happy with the team playing the most boring trap style if it meant they would definitely win a Cup. I can't even explain why I feel that way, especially since I don't live in Toronto (and never have). I figure with the internet resources we have available, I can watch any team any day - I can find high flying entertainment almost any night of the week. McDavid et al one night, McKinnon another...the Devils have some exciting players now, Vancouver, etc. Give me a Cup.

It's a nice bonus that the Leafs are both a Cup contender and highly entertaining but I'd happily trade off some of that entertainment value for a better Cup chance.
 
Chris said:
The whole "Cup vs entertainment" debate is quite interesting. I would trade all of Nylander/Matthews/Marner and be happy with the team playing the most boring trap style if it meant they would definitely win a Cup. I can't even explain why I feel that way, especially since I don't live in Toronto (and never have). I figure with the internet resources we have available, I can watch any team any day - I can find high flying entertainment almost any night of the week. McDavid et al one night, McKinnon another...the Devils have some exciting players now, Vancouver, etc. Give me a Cup.

It's a nice bonus that the Leafs are both a Cup contender and highly entertaining but I'd happily trade off some of that entertainment value for a better Cup chance.
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The difficulty with this kind of hypothetical is that one can never guarantee a cup.  So the typical choice is whether one would prefer a high scoring team or a low scoring team, with no particular guarantee that either one is likely to go further in the playoffs.
 
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
If people want to pick up the discussion started in the GDT comparing entertainment value vs. Cup-winning in the context of Nylander's reported contract, have at it. 

In the GDT I said I am OK with an overpayment because I value nightly entertainment as much or more than playing the kind of hockey that seems to maximize your Cup chances.
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Same. As much as I want the Leafs to win the Cup, I don?t want be falling asleep/bored watching it. I want to be engaged and entertained. As long as it?s well structured, I want higher event hockey. I want to see things I?ve never seen before, great plays, huge saves, etc.

I don?t want disorganized chaos, as entertaining as that can be. I want a team that?s playing well, but is focused on scoring more than the other team rather than preventing more than them.
 
All I ever want from a team I follow is that they make the effort to win. But that?s right from the organisational modus operandi down to how individual players play.

Generally that means they?ll have to play to win and therefore be exciting. And they?ll employ good players to do so who will likely do things that are entertaining. Matthews alone has made enough entertainment the last few seasons.

If they do that and fall short I don?t care really, as much as I love winning stuff.

For whatever reason, presumably the years I?ve spent watching, I have that irrational emotional attachment to the Leafs when it comes to hockey. I do watch the odd other game, but while it might provide those moments I don?t feel,the same level'of excitement when they?re not ?my? team.

The same thing goes for teams I follow in other sports. The only sport I would watch a lot of ?neutral? games is soccer, probably from growing upmply8nf and watching. Hockey is relatively ?new? in my life so perhaps I?d be more like that about hockey had I grown up in hockey culture.
 
Another answer is that if a team wins the cup, one will always find their play exciting regardless of style.  At worst, some 4th liner grunt who scored the 1 goal in the 1-0 nailbiter will be a hero.
 
I've been blessed. I've seen them win Cups.
But I still want it all.
I want to see good players and coaching.
I want to see exciting hockey.
I want to see them win another Cup.

In the 60s, it was kind of expected.
It was like our divine right as Leafs fans that we did not have to go too long before they won another Cup.
56 years later ...

But maybe the odd thing I want to see most:
I'd like to see Leafs fans go nuts when they win a Cup.
In Toronto, I think the celebration would surpass Team Canada '72, which to me, surpassed the Jays & Raptors and Olympic Gold, etc
The party and euphoria would last for days  or longer
 
https://x.com/shutdownline/status/1744190921669779497
https://x.com/jfreshhockey/status/1744032454246056105
 
Every time he's out there he's prone to making horrible decisions and galaxy braining everything. It's like he wants to play better but in doing so he's playing worse.
 
herman said:
https://twitter.com/shutdownline/status/1744190921669779497
https://twitter.com/jfreshhockey/status/1744032454246056105
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Pretty sure he's just being a good teammate and taking a step back to make Nylander look better before probably exploding for 150 points in his own contract season.
 
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