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2024-25 General Trades and Signings

L K said:
I get it and at CtB added, the context was that Marleau was dictating where he was going to play so it was more about the cost of a buyout...although still, the 1st round pick was egregious to eat a year of the deal. That's mostly the comparison I was getting at. Giving up a 1st round pick...the team should have just ate the contract.

I kind of intentionally left off Kreider's previous season although to be honest I wouldn't be shocked if next year Kreider puts up another mediocre year. I don't like his game and I especially don't love it as he gets older.
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Okay, but that is ultimately the problem - it's not an apples to apples comparison. Kreider isn't being dumped on Anaheim the way Marleau was on Carolina (especially considering they had to take on the full $6.5M cap hit on the buyout, since Marleau was on a 35+ contract). So, you're talking the same bigger cap hit but when the ceiling was lower and the team not getting the player in their lineup, just dead space. It's a completely different situation.
 
bustaheims said:
Okay, but that is ultimately the problem - it's not an apples to apples comparison. Kreider isn't being dumped on Anaheim the way Marleau was on Carolina (especially considering they had to take on the full $6.5M cap hit on the buyout, since Marleau was on a 35+ contract). So, you're talking the same bigger cap hit but when the ceiling was lower and the team not getting the player in their lineup, just dead space. It's a completely different situation.
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Carolina had to take on the full $6.25m cap hit but the way the bonuses worked they actually had a cap hit of $5,416,667 in year one and $416,667 in year two. But actual dollars paid out by Carolina was $833,333. Not a bad cost for a first round pick.

It never should have been a 1st round pick going out the door.

The retrospect of Dubas' tenure as Leafs GM seems to be a lot of other GM's (and agents) taking him behind the barn and giving him a licking.
 
Hellebuyck takes the Hart!

Honestly, I don't like a goalie getting the Vezina and the Hart. I feel like maybe a goalie shouldn't be eligible for the Hart?
 
bustaheims said:
He was clearly the most valuable player in the league this season. I don’t see the issue. It happens so rarely.
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I only say it because we don't have an award for top forward chosen in the same way the top goalie and top defenseman are chosen. Seems like a Gary problem.
 
cabber24 said:
I only say it because we don't have an award for top forward chosen in the same way the top goalie and top defenseman are chosen. Seems like a Gary problem.
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If it's a problem, it long pre-dates Bettman.

That being said, I don't think it's a problem. The Selke is a forward only trophy. The Art Ross and Richard are essentially forward only trophies. In general, in a typical season, forwards dominate the awards - especially the Hart. In a season where it is a clearly exceptional goalie or defenceman but there's isn't an serious standout forward (like, you know, this year, where there were some good forward performances but nothing demanding extra recognition), there's no issue with it going to a non-forward. In the 101 seasons since the Hart was introduced, only 7 times has it gone to a goalie and only 13 times has it gone to a defenceman (and only once in the last 50 years).
 
cabber24 said:
I only say it because we don't have an award for top forward chosen in the same way the top goalie and top defenseman are chosen. Seems like a Gary problem.
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Maybe make the Ted Lindsay Award for the Most Outstanding Forward instead of Most Outstanding Player. Problem solved.

I mean, It's kinda dumb they have a 'most valuable player' award and a 'most outstanding' player award.
 
dappleganger said:
Carolina had to take on the full $6.25m cap hit but the way the bonuses worked they actually had a cap hit of $5,416,667 in year one and $416,667 in year two. But actual dollars paid out by Carolina was $833,333. Not a bad cost for a first round pick.

It never should have been a 1st round pick going out the door.
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It was the full cap hit and the Canes also had to pay the $3mil signing bonus:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1144294224273301504

Was a 1st rounder too much? Maybe. But I also don't think there has ever really been a comparable to this. Acquiring LTIR deals is completely different than just taking on a full $6.25mil in dead cap space that can't be worked around in any way. Especially in an offseason where the cap only rose $2mil. The pick also just happened to be in the one year the Leafs missed the playoffs (didn't make it out of the covid qualifying round) in this era and so the selection was pretty high. Almost wish the Leafs were worse that year as it was top-10 protected.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
It was the full cap hit and the Canes also had to pay the $3mil signing bonus:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1144294224273301504

Was a 1st rounder too much? Maybe. But I also don't think there has ever really been a comparable to this. Acquiring LTIR deals is completely different than just taking on a full $6.25mil in dead cap space that can't be worked around in any way. Especially in an offseason where the cap only rose $2mil. The pick also just happened to be in the one year the Leafs missed the playoffs (didn't make it out of the covid qualifying round) in this era and so the selection was pretty high. Almost wish the Leafs were worse that year as it was top-10 protected.
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It would have been advantageous for any team that was $6.25m below the cap and wasn't going to spend to the cap that season. New Jersey, LA, and Ottawa all finished the season with more than $10m in cap space available so all could have absorbed the Marleau contract.

I assumed the Leafs paid Marleau's $3m bonus, but looks like maybe Carolina had to pay it? Not sure. That definitely would have made the acquisition cost different.
 
dappleganger said:
Carolina had to take on the full $6.25m cap hit but the way the bonuses worked they actually had a cap hit of $5,416,667 in year one and $416,667 in year two. But actual dollars paid out by Carolina was $833,333. Not a bad cost for a first round pick.

It never should have been a 1st round pick going out the door.

The retrospect of Dubas' tenure as Leafs GM seems to be a lot of other GM's (and agents) taking him behind the barn and giving him a licking.
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Here’s what Mirtle wrote at the time:

Other GMs were well aware of the Leafs’ cap situation and attempted to take advantage. The fact Marleau has a 35-plus contract full of signing bonuses and a no-movement clause made it extremely difficult to offload, as the cap hit is indestructible and the buyout toothless.
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A lot of NHL execs found the idea of paying for a pick with $6.25 million in cap space and $3.83 million in cash unthinkable.
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Jarmo Kekalainen gave a quote at the time: “$3.8 million for a first-round pick? No thank you.”

I think the reality is Marleau would only go to one place - San Jose. Any team trading for him would have to buy him out and eat that cap space and the actual money as well for a player who was never going to play for them. All of these things brought down his possible destinations to only a few.
 
bustaheims said:
He was clearly the most valuable player in the league this season. I don’t see the issue. It happens so rarely.
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I think Vezina+Hart combos should be reserved for truly exceptional goalie performances. Carey Price's 2014-15 year being a good example where his stats were significantly better than any other goalies close to him in wins. I'm not fully convinced that was the case here. Hellebuyck dominated in wins but Sv% and GAA wasn't that far off from Vasilevskiy. I also think the voters locked onto Helly for Hart a little too early, he arguably wasn't even the best goalie in the league from January 1st on.

Also it's not as if Hellebuyck carried a bad team like Price did. Kyle Connor was 7th in the league in points. Him and Scheifele were 8th and 9th in goals. Josh Morrissey finished 4th in Norris voting. They had five 60-point players (tied for most in the league). They had the top ranked powerplay in the league. Hellebuyck was the best player on the 1st place team of the league yeah but he was far from the only critical piece of the team.
 
The League probably needs to expand the awards to better capture the different roles in the league:

There is a best executive award (Jim Gregory), a best coach award (Jack Adams), a best goaltender award (Vezina), a best defenseman award (Norris) and a best rookie award (Calder). There should be a locked in best forward award.

There is a top goal scorer award (Richard). A top point producer (Art Ross). A best GAA award (Jennings). You could probably add a top scoring defenseman/best offensive defenseman award.

There is a best defensive forward (Selke). There probably should be a best defensive defenseman award to reward guys like Jacob Slavin

Then you have the Hart (voted by the writers) and Ted Lindsay (voted by the players) to determine the best overall player where any position player can be eligible.
 
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