And in summation......

[Steel_Wind]

I somewhat disagree with these three. One bad year from Grabovski doesn't erase everything he's shown in the past.

Suggesting that Bozak and Phaneuf are worth the same on this team is off-base. I believe Phaneuf is far more valuable than Bozak.

If Grabovski can be traded - you do it. My bet is that he cannot be traded at that salary level with the new cap. He's VASTLY overpaid.

I was going to concede the point that Bozak is not worth to the Leafs what Phaneuf is -- yet the more I tried to write in gracious response to your note, the more I deleted. Frankly, I'm not sure that they aren't worth the same -- and if that says some unflattering and flattering things about both, so be it.

So yes, in this year's market for Free Agent centres? Tyler Bozak really IS worth to the Leafs 4.5. Bozak may well get $5 or even $5.5 in this market as an UFA at his age. Other than Ribiero (assuming Washington does not resign him) there's not much left at the upper end. It's not a good year for UFA Centres. (Kyle Wellwood may well be back in a Leafs jersey come September.)

And no, I don't think Phaneuf is being done any favours at $6.5. I might concede $5.5 for Phaneuf. But I don't think Phaneuf will take the pay cut and I don't think Toronto can justify resigning him at $6.5. It follows that Phaneuf is trade bait depending on who is available. Indeed, he'll be worth a lot in a trade in this current market.  As part of a package, we might even land a big fish with him.  Given how these playoffs went for Phaneuf, it might be in everyone's best interests to pull the hammer if that deal comes up.

I am not saying to trade Phaneuf for a bag of pucks. He's a prime timer top D on any team. But if Cliff Fletcher can trade Wendel Clark, Dave Nonis can sure as hell trade Dion Phaneuf if the right deal presents itself.

 

[nutman]

lamagama is a bit younger than me. I was indoctrinated in the early 60's and 67 with a winning mentality...its been a long walk through the desert since then and last night was a ballbuster...but I feel we are getting there...just need to keep Nonis in place.

I was just 6 in 67, and I too have walked the long hard road as a leaf fan. This team is the youngest team in the NHL, and looks very hungry. This year wall a very big Learning year for both the players and management. we will see some tweaks over the summer, I am sure we will be back with a vengeance. We have served notice, THE LEAFS ARE BACK.

Wait a sec... you are in your 50's???

Yes, and a die hard Leaf fan from day one. if I'm right leaf fans will be in for a real treat for the next few years.

 

[Zee]

I somewhat disagree with these three. One bad year from Grabovski doesn't erase everything he's shown in the past.

Suggesting that Bozak and Phaneuf are worth the same on this team is off-base. I believe Phaneuf is far more valuable than Bozak.

If Grabovski can be traded - you do it. My bet is that he cannot be traded at that salary level with the new cap. He's VASTLY overpaid.

Leafs are absolutely stuck with Grabovski at that cap hit.  No GM in their right mind will take his cap hit and give you anything in return with the season he just had.  Best the Leafs can hope for is to give him another shot next season, if he continues to do nothing you 100% have to buy him out the following summer as he'll have 3 years left at $5.5M  You can't have an anchor like that on the team in your top 6 forwards.

 

[Champ Kind]

Wait a sec... you are in your 50's???

And this shocks you??

 

[Zee]

I somewhat disagree with these three. One bad year from Grabovski doesn't erase everything he's shown in the past.

Suggesting that Bozak and Phaneuf are worth the same on this team is off-base. I believe Phaneuf is far more valuable than Bozak.

I am not saying to trade Phaneuf for a bag of pucks. He's a prime timer top D on any team. But if Cliff Fletcher can trade Wendel Clark, Dave Nonis can sure as hell trade Dion Phaneuf if the right deal presents itself.

WAY different situation with trading Clark and Phaneuf.  Wendel was coming off a 46 goal season, and two fantastic playoff runs in 93-94 where he scored 19 goals and 36 points in the 2 playoff seasons combined.  He proved he could produce both at the regular season and playoff level.  Next to Gilmour he was the MVP of the team.  Phaneuf is nowhere close to that on this edition of the Leafs, he's just overpaid.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Leafs are absolutely stuck with Grabovski at that cap hit.  No GM in their right mind will take his cap hit and give you anything in return with the season he just had.  Best the Leafs can hope for is to give him another shot next season, if he continues to do nothing you 100% have to buy him out the following summer as he'll have 3 years left at $5.5M  You can't have an anchor like that on the team in your top 6 forwards.

I know one team that would probably take Grabovski and click their heels in the air, too: The NY Rangers.  Catch is, we'd have to take Brad Richards back on the deal though.

Would you take that bet?

 

[Champ Kind]

...
Dion Phanuef: He's a strong D-man, but he is not a $6.5 million franchise player; He's a 4.5 million D. When his contract is up, he takes a hit or he can go & move on. It's that simple. High salary, inflated expectations and the "C" have all done his career a great disservice in this city. Frankly, at this stage? If you can land something big for him this summer -- you trade him now.

Tyler Bozak: I like this guy and it may well be that with him in the lineup we would have won last night. He's worth $4.5, but no more than that. I hope he stays.

Mikhail Grabovski: -3 on the night, -10 in the playoffs. The lowest plus-minus in the league. No offence, no defence, no skill on face-offs. Skating hard is not enough; taking a hit is not enough. At $3.5 million, you keep him, but not at $5.5. If he cannot be traded (and not many would take his $5.5 mill salary) he should be bought out and sent packing. The Leafs salary cap is better spent elsewhere.

So you're suggestion is to take that overpayed, useless lump with the #3 on his back and trade him for soemthing great?  How'd that work out for Calgary?

But seriously, you mention inflated expectations for Phaneuf, but who else would you suggest play his role?  Who can reasonably replace him?  You don't move the team's top defenseman without getting a better replacement.  Who exactly would that player be?

 

[Zee]

Leafs are absolutely stuck with Grabovski at that cap hit.  No GM in their right mind will take his cap hit and give you anything in return with the season he just had.  Best the Leafs can hope for is to give him another shot next season, if he continues to do nothing you 100% have to buy him out the following summer as he'll have 3 years left at $5.5M  You can't have an anchor like that on the team in your top 6 forwards.

I know one team that would probably take Grabovski and click their heels in the air, too: The NY Rangers.  Catch is, we'd have to take Brad Richards back on the deal though.

Would you take that bet?

The entire purpose of getting rid of Grabovski is the cap hit vs. performance.  I don't mind Grabovski at a lower cap hit, but what he's being paid now is totally a waste of money.  Getting back a higher cap hit in Richards for a longer term hardly solves that problem.  Although Richards did have 34 points this season, he seems like a player on the decline.

 

[Steel_Wind]

WAY different situation with trading Clark and Phaneuf.  Wendel was coming off a 46 goal season, and two fantastic playoff runs in 93-94 where he scored 19 goals and 36 points in the 2 playoff seasons combined.  He proved he could produce both at the regular season and playoff level.  Next to Gilmour he was the MVP of the team.  Phaneuf is nowhere close to that on this edition of the Leafs, he's just overpaid.

I am not suggesting they are equivalent, simply that if you can trade a beloved Captain at the height of his market value, you can trade one who is considerably LOWER in fan popularity and value to the team.

 

[Steel_Wind]

But seriously, you mention inflated expectations for Phaneuf, but who else would you suggest play his role?  Who can reasonably replace him?  You don't move the team's top defenseman without getting a better replacement.  Who exactly would that player be?

We kept Gardiner out until Fraser was hurt.  Fraser will be back. Gardiner stays, Phaneuf is traded as part of a package for a genuine franchise Centre. With Dion out, the cap hit on the new Centre is manageable.

So short answer: you replace your top D with Jake Gardiner.

D Pairings are something like:

Gardiner / Gunnersson
Franson / Fraser
Liles / O'Byrne & Kostka/Holzer

 

[losveratos]

But seriously, you mention inflated expectations for Phaneuf, but who else would you suggest play his role?  Who can reasonably replace him?  You don't move the team's top defenseman without getting a better replacement.  Who exactly would that player be?

We kept Gardiner out until Fraser was hurt.  Fraser will be back. Gardiner stays, Phaneuf is traded as part of a package for a genuine franchise Centre. With Dion out, the cap hit on the new Centre is manageable.

So short answer: you replace your top D with Jake Gardiner.

D Pairings are something like:

Gardiner / Gunnersson
Franson / Fraser
Liles / O'Byrne & Kostka/Holzer

That just sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[Steel_Wind]

The entire purpose of getting rid of Grabovski is the cap hit vs. performance.  I don't mind Grabovski at a lower cap hit, but what he's being paid now is totally a waste of money.  Getting back a higher cap hit in Richards for a longer term hardly solves that problem.  Although Richards did have 34 points this season, he seems like a player on the decline.

Agreed. It would be a significant gamble (though I have no idea if the buyout compliance option would be available to the Leafs on Richards in summer 2014.)

You do have to admit though, trading Grabo for Richards (and hoping he gets better with Lupal or Kessel) and trading Phaneuf as part of a package for The Next Big Thing (I have no idea who that would be) would dramatically change these Toronto Maple Leafs.

If the buyout on Richards was still available, the only risk is money - which the Leafs have more of than even the NY Rangers.

Note: I am not seriously proposing this.  Richards is too old; however, my point was that Grabo could be traded if we REALLY wanted to.

 

[Steel_Wind]

But seriously, you mention inflated expectations for Phaneuf, but who else would you suggest play his role?  Who can reasonably replace him?  You don't move the team's top defenseman without getting a better replacement.  Who exactly would that player be?

We kept Gardiner out until Fraser was hurt.  Fraser will be back. Gardiner stays, Phaneuf is traded as part of a package for a genuine franchise Centre. With Dion out, the cap hit on the new Centre is manageable.

So short answer: you replace your top D with Jake Gardiner.

D Pairings are something like:

Gardiner / Gunnersson
Franson / Fraser
Liles / O'Byrne & Kostka/Holzer

That just sounds like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Sure it does, because we have not yet seen who we might add for him. Depending on the forward though, that might not be a bad deal at all.

Depends on whether or not you see Toronto's D as the great weakness on the team or whether our nagging ache is the lack of a genuine franchise centre as being their biggest deficiency. Me? I think the weakness is at centre.

 

[Mack674]

I hope this is the depression talking, but:

Count me in a different camp here but I saw this playoff run as great experience and value... until last night.

There's losing a close game.. hell there's losing... and then there are heartbreaking 'once in a lifetime' type defeats like we saw last night.

In my opinion, this will not 'build character' or 'motivate' but simply serve to give the leafs self doubt and obliterate their confidence going forward. There are now, and forever, "those guys" that let the biggest comeback in game 7 history happen on their watch.

Something else I dont buy before I forget : "Oh, theyre a young team and need to learn to play a full 60 minutes. Lesson learned." Oh yeah? Aren't these guys pro hockey players and been at this their entire lives? I am all but certain this isn't the first time (in fact I know it's not, I watched this team for many consecutive years) that they had a lead slip away late in a game. Not buying that statement, that's just rationalizing a terrible situation.

I find it much more plausible that this defeat crushed this team or perhaps more importantly, exposed once again, a fatal fundamental flaw in this team. They fall apart when it counts, can't hold down a 3rd period lead... it's been a problem for a while and last night was just that very sort of 'fall apart in the last minute, lose 15 games in a row team' we've seen over the past few years.

No one is going to want to believe that, but I believe its true. Games like this will really show you what a team is made of. In the Bruins case, they are a group of proven winners - that we all already knew. The Leafs, unfortunately, are losers and we will never, ever, heard the end of this. Nor will they.

Vancouver for instance, had a great run a couple years back and were 1 game away from clinching the Stanley cup. They suffered a massive heartbreak defeat and now theyre 1-4 and 0-4 in the playoffs the last two seasons and there's talk of blowing up the team. Ignoring the age difference for a moment, I can see the similarities and it would not surprise me to see this team now regress or fail to accomplish anything more now because of this failure.

This is their legacy now.

To put it the way one of my co workers did this morning: "They suck so bad.. SO BAD, that just losing the game isn't enough. Now they have to set records in losing."

Professionals or not, that kind of failure is tough for anybody to stomach and I think it would take an extraordinary individual to take this kind of event and become better for it.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong, because that game last night was the worst thing I've ever watched as a leaf fan.

 

[Zee]

WAY different situation with trading Clark and Phaneuf.  Wendel was coming off a 46 goal season, and two fantastic playoff runs in 93-94 where he scored 19 goals and 36 points in the 2 playoff seasons combined.  He proved he could produce both at the regular season and playoff level.  Next to Gilmour he was the MVP of the team.  Phaneuf is nowhere close to that on this edition of the Leafs, he's just overpaid.

I am not suggesting they are equivalent, simply that if you can trade a beloved Captain at the height of his market value, you can trade one who is considerably LOWER in fan popularity and value to the team.

Sure, but the entire point when Fletcher traded Clark was the fact that Clark was at the high point, and he got maximum value back.  I was devastated at the time but Sundin was a player on the rise and I understood why they did it.  You can do a lot of things with Phaneuf, he doesn't even have a NTC so he can be traded anywhere, I don't think you'll get anything that great back though, certainly not a player of Sundin's calibre.  I have no idea what they do with Phaneuf, but his minutes need to go down, so that means finding another defenceman somewhere that can play #1 minutes. 

 

[Boston Leaf]

Still though..The Bruins in 2010 had a 3 games to none lead against the Flyers. Philly wins three straight.. Then the Bruisn take a 3-0 lead in game 7.. Blow that and lose series go on to win Cup. I think that is much worse to deal with than what we did. Keep in mind we could have been out in 4... We forced the 7...

 

[Zee]

Still though..The Bruins in 2010 had a 3 games to none lead against the Flyers. Philly wins three straight.. Then the Bruisn take a 3-0 lead in game 7.. Blow that and lose series go on to win Cup. I think that is much worse to deal with than what we did. Keep in mind we could have been out in 4... We forced the 7...

Blowing a 3-0 series lead is worse, but in game 7 they had an EARLY 3 goal lead, in fact Philly scored in the first to make it 3-1 and then tied the game in the 2nd at 3-3.  Not like Boston blew that final game with 2 minutes left and they couldn't hold a 2 goal lead.

 

[Mack674]

Still though..The Bruins in 2010 had a 3 games to none lead against the Flyers. Philly wins three straight.. Then the Bruisn take a 3-0 lead in game 7.. Blow that and lose series go on to win Cup. I think that is much worse to deal with than what we did. Keep in mind we could have been out in 4... We forced the 7...

Yeah I forgot about that, that is a good point. I would hope the same for the Leafs but I just don't see it.

I think the real problem on this team is the lack of a Sundin, Clark, Roberts type to really lead these guys. If you think Phaneuf can get it done as the C, you're high.

When Sundin was around we had a general and not much of a team, now there's a decent core of a team to build around and no general.

And GFMF I wish we had Lucic. Can't stand his face but would love him if he were here. Jealous.

 

[Mack674]

Still though..The Bruins in 2010 had a 3 games to none lead against the Flyers. Philly wins three straight.. Then the Bruisn take a 3-0 lead in game 7.. Blow that and lose series go on to win Cup. I think that is much worse to deal with than what we did. Keep in mind we could have been out in 4... We forced the 7...

Blowing a 3-0 series lead is worse, but in game 7 they had an EARLY 3 goal lead, in fact Philly scored in the first to make it 3-1 and then tied the game in the 2nd at 3-3.  Not like Boston blew that final game with 2 minutes left and they couldn't hold a 2 goal lead.

Last night was still the most epic game 7 collapse of all time. Literally, I wish I was exaggerating, but now the guys on this Leafs team have to wear that forever. No one will remember that Boston loss now (and yes looking at the box score, it was much more reasonable than last nights debacle) especially since the won the cup shortly afterward.

Once again, we suck, and in record setting ways.

What Michael Peca said on tsn struck me as particularly unnerving when he said (loosely) "I've never witnessed anything like that in my career and I can tell you something like that will haunt you forever."

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Wait a sec... you are in your 50's???

And this shocks you??

This is a bigger shock to me than last nights meltdown.

This will scar me for life.