Blacker to Ducks for depth.

[CarltonTheBear]

The whole thread has been about Holland, but what did we lose in Blacker?  I pay only the slightest attention to the Marlies, but the few times I heard him mentioned on here he was spoken of highly, at least as highly as Holzer.  Anybody want to venture an opinion/analysis?

He's been a healthy scratch for the Marlies most of the season and never really got his offence going with them since he finished junior. My guess is the team didn't really lose much there - he seems like he's really just another run of the mill defensive prospect.

So is he more of an offensive d-man than a shutdown guy?  If he is, then there is nothing not to like about the trade except the possible loss of a 2nd IMO.  We have more than enough offensive-minded defensemen now.

He was an offensive guy in junior who was developing more of a two-way game in the pros. But in the past season he's been passed by at least half a dozen prospects so he likely would have never made it as a Leaf.

 

[Bullfrog]

So is he more of an offensive d-man than a shutdown guy?  If he is, then there is nothing not to like about the trade except the possible loss of a 2nd IMO.  We have more than enough offensive-minded defensemen now.

I think it's a good example of dealing from a strength. The Leafs have a lot of defense prospects.

 

[princedpw]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

 

[moon111]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

He probably doesn't have the skill set to crack the 3rd or 4th line.  So you either use him on the 1-2 or not at all. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

He probably doesn't have the skill set to crack the 3rd or 4th line.  So you either use him on the 1-2 or not at all.

As far as I can tell the skill set required to play on the 4th line is put 1 foot in front of the other, so I'm not sure where the Leafs or their fans can feel that shunting skilled players away if they can't play on the top 2 lines makes sense.  It's not a bad thing to have more skill on the 3rd and 4th lines.  The team is in trouble now because no one on the bottom 2 lines can score.  There's zero depth scoring.

 

[mr grieves]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

He probably doesn't have the skill set to crack the 3rd or 4th line.  So you either use him on the 1-2 or not at all.

As far as I can tell the skill set required to play on the 4th line is put 1 foot in front of the other, so I'm not sure where the Leafs or their fans can feel that shunting skilled players away if they can't play on the top 2 lines makes sense.  It's not a bad thing to have more skill on the 3rd and 4th lines.  The team is in trouble now because no one on the bottom 2 lines can score.  There's zero depth scoring.

Well, it's not zero depth scoring. I think they're up to 3 goals. I wonder where that ranks in the league.

 

[Tigger]

He was an offensive guy in junior who was developing more of a two-way game in the pros. But in the past season he's been passed by at least half a dozen prospects so he likely would have never made it as a Leaf.

Not that this makes a lick of difference to the trade, which seems like a good one for Toronto, but Jesse was used in all situations his last year in junior, fwiw, relied upon heavily on the pk ( switched sides for some odd reason for it ) and even strength against other teams top offensive units. He was 'known' as an offensive defenseman but his last year he demonstrated terrific two way play. What separated him was his skating ability, to rejoin the play if he needed to recover. Tougher to do at the pro level and is/was probably quite an adjustment for him. I still think he has NHL ability, he's been banged up a bit and part of a deep defensive roster so I hope he gets an opportunity to take the next step with the Ducks.

 

[moon111]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

He probably doesn't have the skill set to crack the 3rd or 4th line.  So you either use him on the 1-2 or not at all.

As far as I can tell the skill set required to play on the 4th line is put 1 foot in front of the other, so I'm not sure where the Leafs or their fans can feel that shunting skilled players away if they can't play on the top 2 lines makes sense.  It's not a bad thing to have more skill on the 3rd and 4th lines.  The team is in trouble now because no one on the bottom 2 lines can score.  There's zero depth scoring.

Well, it's not zero depth scoring. I think they're up to 3 goals. I wonder where that ranks in the league.

The Leafs haven't iced their line-up once this season.  When it does, the 3rd line will be better.  As for center depth, the `83-84 Oilers 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centers were: Ken Linseman, Kevin McClelland, Pat Conacher who managed 10 assists in the playoffs.  You don't need all finesse players.  Have two lines that can really score, and the rest to make life miserable for the other team.  Holland will be there as long as the team needs help scoring.  Otherwise, he's out.  Sorry but the Leafs don't need him assigned to shut down Sidney Crosby.  Then again, put him in the top two and put Bozak on the 3rd. 

 

[Kin]

As for center depth, the `83-84 Oilers 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centers were: Ken Linseman, Kevin McClelland, Pat Conacher who managed 10 assists in the playoffs.

I'm pretty sure the Oilers top two centers that year were Gretzky and Messier.

 

[moon111]

As for center depth, the `83-84 Oilers 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centers were: Ken Linseman, Kevin McClelland, Pat Conacher who managed 10 assists in the playoffs.

I'm pretty sure the Oilers top two centers that year were Gretzky and Messier.

Messier was a LW.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

As for center depth, the `83-84 Oilers 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centers were: Ken Linseman, Kevin McClelland, Pat Conacher who managed 10 assists in the playoffs.

I'm pretty sure the Oilers top two centers that year were Gretzky and Messier.

Messier was a LW.

He moved to C in the playoffs in 1984.

 

[moon111]

As for center depth, the `83-84 Oilers 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centers were: Ken Linseman, Kevin McClelland, Pat Conacher who managed 10 assists in the playoffs.

I'm pretty sure the Oilers top two centers that year were Gretzky and Messier.

Messier was a LW.

He moved to C in the playoffs in 1984.

I stand corrected, thought it was a later development.  But still, a guy like a Linesmon, Otto, Zezel... Holland is a far cry from filling that type of role.  I would be more inclined to use Bozak in such a role.

 

[Coco-puffs]

So maple leafs hotstove put together a piece comparing Holland to other 1st round picks that played in the AHL and their PPG numbers while doing so.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2013/11/17/peter-holland-by-ahl-points-per-game-2004-2010/

He is in pretty rare company right there, most of those guys are impactful NHL'ers.

It's too early, but Nonis might have pulled off a heist right here.

Comments on a Ducks discussion board suggest that they thought he was an extremely promising prospect a couple of years ago but that he hasn't been able to make the jump to the NHL.  Hence, they aren't that concerned about losing him.

He probably doesn't have the skill set to crack the 3rd or 4th line.  So you either use him on the 1-2 or not at all.

As far as I can tell the skill set required to play on the 4th line is put 1 foot in front of the other, so I'm not sure where the Leafs or their fans can feel that shunting skilled players away if they can't play on the top 2 lines makes sense.  It's not a bad thing to have more skill on the 3rd and 4th lines.  The team is in trouble now because no one on the bottom 2 lines can score.  There's zero depth scoring.

Well, it's not zero depth scoring. I think they're up to 3 goals. I wonder where that ranks in the league.

Our third line (when healthy) is Raymond (8) - Bolland (6) - Kulemin (1)

Our third line (last couple of games) is Raymond (8) - McClement (0) - Kulemin (1)

Minimum 9 goals from the third line.  Our fourth line, on the other hand, is a black hole for scoring.  I think the only "fourth line" goal all season was Trevor Smith's first goal.  (His other two came recently while playing with Lupul and Clarkson)

 

[Rebel_1812]

I don't know how people can call Holland depth, he should turn out better then stajan.

 

[nutman]

I don't know how people can call Holland depth, he should turn out better then stajan.

I like him and his size on Kessels line. I wish Bozak was out for four or five more games to see how this kid would do over a few more games. It was nice to see Carlyle woke up and put him back there instead of Kadri as the game went on. I don't think Kadri meshes well on the Kessel line.

 

[princedpw]

I don't know how people can call Holland depth, he should turn out better then stajan.

I always thought Stajan was a little better than Bozak so is Holland now our #1 C?

 

[AvroArrow]

I like him and his size on Kessels line. I wish Bozak was out for four or five more games to see how this kid would do over a few more games. It was nice to see Carlyle woke up and put him back there instead of Kadri as the game went on. I don't think Kadri meshes well on the Kessel line.

I'd like to see Bozak slide into Bolland's spot, leaving Holland and Kadri as our top 2 centers (not necessarily in that order).

 

[nutman]

I like him and his size on Kessels line. I wish Bozak was out for four or five more games to see how this kid would do over a few more games. It was nice to see Carlyle woke up and put him back there instead of Kadri as the game went on. I don't think Kadri meshes well on the Kessel line.

I'd like to see Bozak slide into Bolland's spot, leaving Holland and Kadri as our top 2 centers (not necessarily in that order).

In that order, would be good.

 

[moon111]

I like him and his size on Kessels line. I wish Bozak was out for four or five more games to see how this kid would do over a few more games. It was nice to see Carlyle woke up and put him back there instead of Kadri as the game went on. I don't think Kadri meshes well on the Kessel line.

I'd like to see Bozak slide into Bolland's spot, leaving Holland and Kadri as our top 2 centers (not necessarily in that order).

In that order, would be good.

I think without Bozak, Kessel's lack of defense is costing the Leafs.  Leading all NHL forwards in giveaways.  You can't play Lupul with Kessel or you really have a line that gives up the puck.  The Bozak/Kessel combo is unfortunately necessary.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Leading all NHL forwards in giveaways. 

This shouldn't really be news, but every season the top 10 in giveaways for forwards are some of the top offensive players.  Datsyuk (you've probably heard of him, won some "Selke Trophy" award 3 times) was 8th in giveaways last season - is he costing Detroit?  Bozak, who you say needs to be there to save Kessel, was 9th in giveaways last season.  Tavares was 2nd.  Thornton was 3rd. Kovalchuk was 4th.

The season before that it's the same thing.

Sensing a pattern?  The players who have the puck on their stick a lot also end up with a lot of recorded giveaways.