Blues @ Leafs - Mar. 25th, 7:00pm - SN, TSN 1050

[Redleaf]

Hopefully the Leafs lose.

is this reverse psychology?  because I don't really buy that it's beneficial for them to lose at this point...being just on the outside of the playoffs isn't going to help them much draft wise...and if they flame it out isn't guaranteed that they'll fire Carlyle

And firing Carlyle isn't any guarantee that the team will improve anyways.

It can't get much worse.  Unless a new coach breaks the goalies' legs or something.

Sure it could. We could get a coach that doesn't have time for error prone rookies, or one that wants to use guys from the farm a to more, and we could take a major step backwards before it turns back around.

Using the guys from the farm a ton more - I don't know what that means.  That's a negative for some reason?  Any new coach is still going to be relying on the same offensive guys (Kessel/JVR the main ones).  We could also get a coach who doesn't have time for knuckle-dragging 4th lines.  Or plodding defensemen.  Or that doesn't have time for traditional medicine and wants every player on the Atkins diet.  You could do this forever.

You haven't said how those things you said would be a 'major step backwards.'

I didn't phrase that the best way. A coach that decides he wants to have prospects learn on the fly instead of gradually allowing them to learn the game at the NHL level is what I meant to say.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I didn't phrase that the best way. A coach that decides he wants to have prospects learn on the fly instead of gradually allowing them to learn the game at the NHL level is what I meant to say.

I don't think either approach is inherently right or wrong, it would depend on the individual prospect I think, and be up to the coach/management to identify which development path is appropriate.  There are tons of 18-19 year old players who have played in recent years and done fine in subsequent years, but there are also players like Kadri who seem to have benefited from additional time in the minors.

 

[Redleaf]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

 

[Redleaf]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

 

[Boston Leaf]

6 - 1 Blues... Rielly with the goal

 

[Redleaf]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

If the W-L record isn't a good indication of whether or not a team is improving, then which indicator should we use?

 

[freer]

I am predicting a different finish. more like the finish from LA. they seem to play better against better teams. 3-2 leafs

 

[Stronger Than All]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

If the W-L record isn't a good indication of whether or not a team is improving, then which indicator should we use?

shots on goal differential. 

 

[Redleaf]

I am predicting a different finish. more like the finish from LA. they seem to play better against better teams. 3-2 leafs

I really hope you're right here, but Reimer's confidence appears to be so shattered right now, I don't see him playing as well as he did in that LA game..... oh so long ago....

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

If the W-L record isn't a good indication of whether or not a team is improving, then which indicator should we use?

Goal differential, shot differential to name a couple. Leafs are on pace to give up more shots than an expansion team that won 17 games, how is that improvement?  That shouldn't even be possible.  Leafs points percentage is 19th in the league.  Leafs PK is 28th, in 2011-12 it was 28th.  Goals per game in 11-12 was 2.77, this season is 2.80.  Goals against per game in 11-12 was 3.16 (29th), this season is 3.04 (26th).  PP is 2% better this season than in 11-12.

The Leafs are on the same regulation/OT points pace this season as in Wilson's last season.  Like I said, this roster is better.  SO's are a crapshoot and not something you can expect to repeat season to season.

I struggle to see what improvements have been made with a better roster and FAR better goaltending.  Where have improvements been made?  Any positive differences from Wilson's last season to this season are incremental at best (ex. GA/G and PP differences) and in some cases are clearly attributable to Bernier's goaltending.

 

[Redleaf]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

If the W-L record isn't a good indication of whether or not a team is improving, then which indicator should we use?

Goal differential, shot differential to name a couple. Leafs are on pace to give up more shots than an expansion team that won 17 games, how is that improvement?  That shouldn't even be possible.  Leafs points percentage is 19th in the league.  Leafs PK is 28th, in 2011-12 it was 28th.  Goals per game in 11-12 was 2.77, this season is 2.80.  Goals against per game in 11-12 was 3.16 (29th), this season is 3.04 (26th).  PP is 2% better this season than in 11-12.

The Leafs are on the same regulation/OT points pace this season as in Wilson's last season.  Like I said, this roster is better.  SO's are a crapshoot and not something you can expect to repeat season to season.

I struggle to see what improvements have been made with a better roster and FAR better goaltending.  Where have improvements been made?  Any positive differences from Wilson's last season to this season are incremental at best (ex. GA/G and PP differences) and in some cases are clearly attributable to Bernier's goaltending.

But which one should be used to indicate whether or not a team has improved or declined over a lengthy period of time? Its a pretty simple question that shouldnt need to be dissected and broken into a million parts.

 

[bustaheims]

But which one should be used to indicate whether or not a team has improved or declined over a lengthy period of time? Its a pretty simple question that shouldnt need to be dissected and broken into a million parts.

You know, I have a question for you, since you seem to have so many for us. What aspects of the team's play on the ice have improved under Carlyle that can reasonably be attributed to Carlyle? I mean, other than a marginal improvement in the team's record, what has Carlyle done to make the team better? Those of us on the other side can point to a number of areas where he's either been no improvement or has made the team worse, but I have yet to see anyone suggest a single aspect of the Leafs' play that has actually improved through Carlyle's coaching.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

@jonasTSN1050

Bernier hasn't played since Mar. 13, but looks to be the starter tonight.

EDIT:

@markhmasters 

Reimer, MacIntyre split the 1st drill, now Drew on the bench during line rushes ... All signs point to Bernier tonight

‏@markhmasters 

Making things tricky: Bernier doesn't do interviews on game days & Carlyle's superstition is not to officially name a starter

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

MY point is that you don't know what a new coach brings to the table until it happens. I have a hard time going along with an off-the-cuff remark that 'he can't be worse'. You just don't know that.

I mean in terms of play.  They can't really allow more chances/shots against, their PK can't really get appreciably worse, they can't really give up more possession time.

Leafs are a capped out team on the playoff bubble.  Can't really afford to waste more of Kessel's best years.  Maybe it will or won't work with another coach, but it hasn't worked with the current one.  The team has not improved under Carlyle, and arguably taken a step back.

This is highly debatable. Their W-L record since Wilson left suggests the team has improved. And you've already admitted to preferring the team now that is 'under' Carlyle as opposed to the one that was 'under' Wilson.

Right, I prefer the players on the roster.  W-L record is not a good indication of how the team is playing, especially one enhanced by the SO, but we won't rehash this for the millionth time.

If the W-L record isn't a good indication of whether or not a team is improving, then which indicator should we use?

Goal differential, shot differential to name a couple. Leafs are on pace to give up more shots than an expansion team that won 17 games, how is that improvement?  That shouldn't even be possible.  Leafs points percentage is 19th in the league.  Leafs PK is 28th, in 2011-12 it was 28th.  Goals per game in 11-12 was 2.77, this season is 2.80.  Goals against per game in 11-12 was 3.16 (29th), this season is 3.04 (26th).  PP is 2% better this season than in 11-12.

The Leafs are on the same regulation/OT points pace this season as in Wilson's last season.  Like I said, this roster is better.  SO's are a crapshoot and not something you can expect to repeat season to season.

I struggle to see what improvements have been made with a better roster and FAR better goaltending.  Where have improvements been made?  Any positive differences from Wilson's last season to this season are incremental at best (ex. GA/G and PP differences) and in some cases are clearly attributable to Bernier's goaltending.

But which one should be used to indicate whether or not a team has improved or declined over a lengthy period of time? Its a pretty simple question that shouldnt need to be dissected and broken into a million parts.

There is never going to be one magic number or stat that tells you that.  You have to examine all of the available data to come to your own conclusion.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

@jonasTSN1050

Bernier hasn't played since Mar. 13, but looks to be the starter tonight.

so there is hope?

 

[Redleaf]

But which one should be used to indicate whether or not a team has improved or declined over a lengthy period of time? Its a pretty simple question that shouldnt need to be dissected and broken into a million parts.

You know, I have a question for you, since you seem to have so many for us. What aspects of the team's play on the ice have improved under Carlyle that can reasonably be attributed to Carlyle? I mean, other than a marginal improvement in the team's record, what has Carlyle done to make the team better? Those of us on the other side can point to a number of areas where he's either been no improvement or has made the team worse, but I have yet to see anyone suggest a single aspect of the Leafs' play that has actually improved through Carlyle's coaching.

Point out to me where I've ever said Carlyle has done great things in Toronto, and I'll answer your question. This debate was never about whether or not I think Carlyle is a great coach, the argument is coming from you guys saying he's the main problem. To that end, I've always been of the belief that there are bigger issues with this team than the coaching.

 

[Redleaf]

@jonasTSN1050

Bernier hasn't played since Mar. 13, but looks to be the starter tonight.

so there is hope?

Let's just hope he ready!!

 

[louisstamos]

@jonasTSN1050

Bernier hasn't played since Mar. 13, but looks to be the starter tonight.

so there is hope?