Captain Phaneuf

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but it sounds like you are saying the previous 2+ seasons of the team's horrible defensive play had little to do with Phaneuf and more to do with goaltending.

He's led the team in icetime his entire time with the team.....

Obviously everyone plays a part in it, but here's a look at how poorly the Leafs goaltending was, and how much of an impact that can have on a player's stats.

This article shows that Kessel (who was a -8 at the time) was getting an On-Ice SV% of .893 from Leafs goaltenders.  They adjusted it for league average goaltending (so not even for great goaltending), and his adjusted +/- would have come out to be +18.

Just like this season, a number of players (Phaneuf included) are benefitting from some of the league's best SV%, the last couple seasons they've also grappled with some of the worst.  It makes it difficult to point to things like +/- anyways.

I'm not crazy about On Ice SV% because it more or less implies the goalie's play is a determinant on the player's stats and not the other way around. Does this factor in how many goals may have been as a direct result of a Kessel turnover, or not coming back and taking his man?

Well it's the same as the stats don't make due for Gustavsson putting a shot going wide into his own net.  But I think the real impact on it is that on-ice SV% from year to year will have it's share of randomness, but as I've found through googling + twitter, league average on-ice SV% is typically .920.  No Leaf that played any significant minutes last season finished with an on-ice SV% of at least .920.  That on it's own probably wouldn't be worth a lot, but it's probably pretty bad that not a single player (a few did in shortened NHL stints, or in 4th line minutes - Rosehill) was league average.

If that's combined with the overall picture of the goaltender's numbers, coupled with any visual scouting you want to do on the goaltenders, I think it paints a picture of some pretty godawful goaltending.  Prior to this season, I think only James Reimer in the last couple seasons ever had a decent stretch of hockey with a league average or better even strength SV%.  The players deserve a chunk of the blame for the goaltending, but it was still terrible by any measurement.  I had such hope for Gustavsson too....

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but it sounds like you are saying the previous 2+ seasons of the team's horrible defensive play had little to do with Phaneuf and more to do with goaltending.

He's led the team in icetime his entire time with the team.....

Obviously everyone plays a part in it, but here's a look at how poorly the Leafs goaltending was, and how much of an impact that can have on a player's stats.

This article shows that Kessel (who was a -8 at the time) was getting an On-Ice SV% of .893 from Leafs goaltenders.  They adjusted it for league average goaltending (so not even for great goaltending), and his adjusted +/- would have come out to be +18.

Just like this season, a number of players (Phaneuf included) are benefitting from some of the league's best SV%, the last couple seasons they've also grappled with some of the worst.  It makes it difficult to point to things like +/- anyways.

Man, imagine how bad Phaneuf's +/- would be without the strong team d and goaltending 

His on-ice SV% is actually right around the avg right now.  I think the goalies will probably regress some, but hopefully at 5 on 5 it won't be too bad.  Scrivens is sitting at a .939 SV% at even strength so far, which last year would be one of the top 1 or 2 in the league.  So I'd expect that to fall a bit, but if he can keep it between .920-.930 that should be good enough.  The league average is right around there (to the .920 end of that scale).

 

[dappleganger]

Until this year the leafs Team D/goaltending has been atrociuos...

Right, so you think the team's GAA has much more to do with team D/goaltending then the play of their #1 defenseman. So it's entirely possible to have a good GAA and a sub-par guy playing a ton of minutes.

So it's entirely possible to have a good GAA and a really good guy playing a ton of minutes.

That means nothing.

I feel stupid bringing up the team GA/G. My point was that as a team we're playing well defensively so let's not harp on Phaneuf because it ain't that bad.

The biggest difference with this team is Carlyle and I don't think he'd be playing Phaneuf so much if he wasn't getting the job done.

Phaneuf is not my favourite Leaf but I have no problem with what he brings to the team. That could change.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

 

[Corn Flake]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

 

[Boston Leaf]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

I agree with that

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

Do I keep track? No. Do those that rip on the goaltending keep track of the saves they make before they let in a softie? Good plays don't make up for bad plays in hockey. When you are causing your team goals against, I don't care how many you fend off...especially when that's your job.

If you're fine with the "#1 dman" causing goals against, perhaps our standards are just different.

There were several other idiotic plays he made that I chose to forgive because they didn't lead to scoring chances/goals..

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

Do those that rip on the goaltending keep track of the saves they make before they let in a softie?

And in saying that I mean, if Ben Scrivens makes 30 of 32 saves and the game is tied 2-2 and he suddenly lets in a squeaker from the point that any average goalie could of stopped, do his 30 saves remove him from criticism? What about if 10 of those 30 saves were on legtitimate scoring chances? I don't think it does. your job is to stop the puck...If you don't do it, you're not doing your job.

 

[rdowdall]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

Do those that rip on the goaltending keep track of the saves they make before they let in a softie?

And in saying that I mean, if Ben Scrivens makes 30 of 32 saves and the game is tied 2-2 and he suddenly lets in a squeaker from the point that any average goalie could of stopped, do his 30 saves remove him from criticism? What about if 10 of those 30 saves were on legtitimate scoring chances? I don't think it does. your job is to stop the puck...If you don't do it, you're not doing your job.

But as a keeper, I'm sure you'll agree that if you get peppered with 30 shots over the first two periods, your focus wanes a little bit in the third.  Also letting in a bad goal in the first couple of minutes because your focus was off happens.  If you reset and play a stellar game the rest of the way and buckle down, I think some would absolve the goalie of that first goal.

I remember the first playoff series Joseph played for the Wings against the Ducks.  The Ducks won the series, but they won it because Detroit just couldn't score.  Was that Joseph's fault?  If he lets in a bad goal in a game, but loses the game 1-0, is that still his fault?  In the case where you lose one nothing, is it the goalies fault depending on whether or not it is a bad goal?  Is it his fault if there was nothing he could do on the play?  What if there were no mistakes on the play, but Kariya just makes an unbelievable individual effort, and scores a goal on a powerplay?  Is that still Josephs fault?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

Do those that rip on the goaltending keep track of the saves they make before they let in a softie?

And in saying that I mean, if Ben Scrivens makes 30 of 32 saves and the game is tied 2-2 and he suddenly lets in a squeaker from the point that any average goalie could of stopped, do his 30 saves remove him from criticism? What about if 10 of those 30 saves were on legtitimate scoring chances? I don't think it does. your job is to stop the puck...If you don't do it, you're not doing your job.

But as a keeper, I'm sure you'll agree that if you get peppered with 30 shots over the first two periods, your focus wanes a little bit in the third.  Also letting in a bad goal in the first couple of minutes because your focus was off happens.  If you reset and play a stellar game the rest of the way and buckle down, I think some would absolve the goalie of that first goal.

I remember the first playoff series Joseph played for the Wings against the Ducks.  The Ducks won the series, but they won it because Detroit just couldn't score.  Was that Joseph's fault?  If he lets in a bad goal in a game, but loses the game 1-0, is that still his fault?  In the case where you lose one nothing, is it the goalies fault depending on whether or not it is a bad goal?  Is it his fault if there was nothing he could do on the play?  What if there were no mistakes on the play, but Kariya just makes an unbelievable individual effort, and scores a goal on a powerplay?  Is that still Josephs fault?

Well, it would all depend on the situation. A 1-0 loss is generally not the goalies fault. But if said goal was a weak one, there's still going to be some that rag on him.

Perhaps I should rephrase my statement in saying it is the goalie's job to stop the puck. It's the goalie's job to stop the 'stoppable' shots.

It's Phaneuf's job to break up plays in the defensive zone. It's Phaneuf's job to gain control of the puck and remove it from harm. I'll be the first to admit when a defenseman gets burnt by a great offensive play. But, when a dman is carrying the puck and in attempting to get the puck out, he actually places it in risky situations, I have to call him on it.

I'm not saying he's the only one that made mistakes last night. And perhaps my microscope is on him a tad more than others..but that's to be expected when you're the captain of the team, you're getting paid 6 million a year, and you're on the ice so much when it's really not warranted.

Like I said previously...He's out there because there is no other option. Scrivens is playing well, but if he was only playing average, chances are he'd still be out there because the next option isn't really an option at this point.

 

[rdowdall]

Two more huge flubs by Phaneuf.

One on the 2 on 1 where Scrivens made a huge(could of been game saving) save.

The other on the goal to make it 4-2.

Just wondering.. do you keep track of the dozens of plays he does correctly each game, or his ability to turn many dangerous situations into a Leafs possession, you know, just to be fair?

Do those that rip on the goaltending keep track of the saves they make before they let in a softie?

And in saying that I mean, if Ben Scrivens makes 30 of 32 saves and the game is tied 2-2 and he suddenly lets in a squeaker from the point that any average goalie could of stopped, do his 30 saves remove him from criticism? What about if 10 of those 30 saves were on legtitimate scoring chances? I don't think it does. your job is to stop the puck...If you don't do it, you're not doing your job.

But as a keeper, I'm sure you'll agree that if you get peppered with 30 shots over the first two periods, your focus wanes a little bit in the third.  Also letting in a bad goal in the first couple of minutes because your focus was off happens.  If you reset and play a stellar game the rest of the way and buckle down, I think some would absolve the goalie of that first goal.

I remember the first playoff series Joseph played for the Wings against the Ducks.  The Ducks won the series, but they won it because Detroit just couldn't score.  Was that Joseph's fault?  If he lets in a bad goal in a game, but loses the game 1-0, is that still his fault?  In the case where you lose one nothing, is it the goalies fault depending on whether or not it is a bad goal?  Is it his fault if there was nothing he could do on the play?  What if there were no mistakes on the play, but Kariya just makes an unbelievable individual effort, and scores a goal on a powerplay?  Is that still Josephs fault?

Well, it would all depend on the situation. A 1-0 loss is generally not the goalies fault. But if said goal was a weak one, there's still going to be some that rag on him.

Perhaps I should rephrase my statement in saying it is the goalie's job to stop the puck. It's the goalie's job to stop the 'stoppable' shots.

It's Phaneuf's job to break up plays in the defensive zone. It's Phaneuf's job to gain control of the puck and remove it from harm. I'll be the first to admit when a defenseman gets burnt by a great offensive play. But, when a dman is carrying the puck and in attempting to get the puck out, he actually places it in risky situations, I have to call him on it.

I'm not saying he's the only one that made mistakes last night. And perhaps my microscope is on him a tad more than others..but that's to be expected when you're the captain of the team, you're getting paid 6 million a year, and you're on the ice so much when it's really not warranted.

Like I said previously...He's out there because there is no other option. Scrivens is playing well, but if he was only playing average, chances are he'd still be out there because the next option isn't really an option at this point.

I should point out that I agree with you.  I think that Phanuef is a capable defenceman, one who deserves to be in the NHL, but he should not be in the role that he is in and he is there because there isn't another option for that role.  If Reilly or Gardiner develop the way people are hoping then do, then he probably isn't in that role in a couple of years, if he is still with the Leafs.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

I should point out that I agree with you.  I think that Phanuef is a capable defenceman, one who deserves to be in the NHL, but he should not be in the role that he is in and he is there because there isn't another option for that role.  If Reilly or Gardiner develop the way people are hoping then do, then he probably isn't in that role in a couple of years, if he is still with the Leafs.

See, I'm not entirely sure that Reilly or Gardiner solve the problem either, because from what I've seen of them, neither are entirely responsible in their own end either.

Every team needs that #2 dman that's out there just to shut the other team down. I see noone on Toronto capable of doing so.

 

[Corn Flake]

I should point out that I agree with you.  I think that Phanuef is a capable defenceman, one who deserves to be in the NHL, but he should not be in the role that he is in and he is there because there isn't another option for that role.  If Reilly or Gardiner develop the way people are hoping then do, then he probably isn't in that role in a couple of years, if he is still with the Leafs.

See, I'm not entirely sure that Reilly or Gardiner solve the problem either, because from what I've seen of them, neither are entirely responsible in their own end either.

Every team needs that #2 dman that's out there just to shut the other team down. I see noone on Toronto capable of doing so.

I think what you may be coming to realize is there really are very few in the NHL who can do the job Phaneuf does better and NOT make the odd mistake, despite dealing with the best opponents every single night.

Mark Fraser has far better stats than Phaneuf but if you put him up against the competition that Dion deals with, I'm sure his numbers would drop in a big way.

 

[Corn Flake]

Well, it would all depend on the situation. A 1-0 loss is generally not the goalies fault. But if said goal was a weak one, there's still going to be some that rag on him.

Sorry jumping back into the discussion here....

Kind of my point is that those who rag on a goalie for only letting in 1 goal that wasn't a great one when he stopped 30 other shots with some wild saves need to look at the big picture.  Yes if the goalie is letting in one bad one EVERY night then it's a whole different problem.  Scrivens had a weak one last night through the wickets - but he made some incredible saves before that.  The team let him down and he wore down - that's the reality of the situation, and the case for basically every other goalie - there will be mistakes.  It's a game of mistakes.

That said, I think comparing goalies to d-men in the context you are trying to is tough though.

It's Phaneuf's job to break up plays in the defensive zone. It's Phaneuf's job to gain control of the puck and remove it from harm. I'll be the first to admit when a defenseman gets burnt by a great offensive play. But, when a dman is carrying the puck and in attempting to get the puck out, he actually places it in risky situations, I have to call him on it.

I'm not saying he's the only one that made mistakes last night. And perhaps my microscope is on him a tad more than others..but that's to be expected when you're the captain of the team, you're getting paid 6 million a year, and you're on the ice so much when it's really not warranted.

To your last phrase.. he doesn't decide when he's on the ice.  So you should direct your frustration to the coach if you don't like how much ice he gets, not at Phaneuf.

All of the best d-men out there make mistakes.  I've seen Chara make big goofs and giveaways many times.  Chara makes more money than Phaneuf so should he be held even more accountable?  What if we had Chara instead? 99 times out of 100 he will make the right play.. but if he makes 1 mistake do you jump and down talking about how Chara is error prone and shouldn't be?

My issue is that I think you sit back and wait for mistakes and the second you see one you jump out of your chair and point at the TV.. but when there are 99 other plays made by the same guy which are fine, you aren't even noticing them. 

 

[rdowdall]

I should point out that I agree with you.  I think that Phanuef is a capable defenceman, one who deserves to be in the NHL, but he should not be in the role that he is in and he is there because there isn't another option for that role.  If Reilly or Gardiner develop the way people are hoping then do, then he probably isn't in that role in a couple of years, if he is still with the Leafs.

See, I'm not entirely sure that Reilly or Gardiner solve the problem either, because from what I've seen of them, neither are entirely responsible in their own end either.

Every team needs that #2 dman that's out there just to shut the other team down. I see noone on Toronto capable of doing so.

Well, I think the Leafs need a #1 d-man first.  If you look at Erik Karlsson, he's considered a number one defenceman.  While he is not as bad defensively as some make him out to be, his strong suit is definitely offense.  Then you slot Phanuef in to the number 3 role.  Now you just have to find partners for them.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Well, it would all depend on the situation. A 1-0 loss is generally not the goalies fault. But if said goal was a weak one, there's still going to be some that rag on him.

Yes if the goalie is letting in one bad one EVERY night then it's a whole different problem. 

Well, it seems to me that Phaneuf is making some mighty big errors almost on a nightly basis..sooooo....

It's Phaneuf's job to break up plays in the defensive zone. It's Phaneuf's job to gain control of the puck and remove it from harm. I'll be the first to admit when a defenseman gets burnt by a great offensive play. But, when a dman is carrying the puck and in attempting to get the puck out, he actually places it in risky situations, I have to call him on it.

I'm not saying he's the only one that made mistakes last night. And perhaps my microscope is on him a tad more than others..but that's to be expected when you're the captain of the team, you're getting paid 6 million a year, and you're on the ice so much when it's really not warranted.

To your last phrase.. he doesn't decide when he's on the ice.  So you should direct your frustration to the coach if you don't like how much ice he gets, not at Phaneuf.

All of the best d-men out there make mistakes.  I've seen Chara make big goofs and giveaways many times.  Chara makes more money than Phaneuf so should he be held even more accountable?  What if we had Chara instead? 99 times out of 100 he will make the right play.. but if he makes 1 mistake do you jump and down talking about how Chara is error prone and shouldn't be?

My issue is that I think you sit back and wait for mistakes and the second you see one you jump out of your chair and point at the TV.. but when there are 99 other plays made by the same guy which are fine, you aren't even noticing them.
[/quote]

If you take a look back at my posts just a couple pages ago, you'll see that I say almost the exact same thing. My problem isn't with Phaneuf's skill set persay...it's in the way he's being used. He makes some bonehead plays and they're all that more noticeable because he's expected to be that shutdown guy. Perhaps I'm ragging in the wrong thread.

As for the 99 other plays. I shouldn't notice those. Well atleast, not take note of them. They're normal plays that every dman on the ice is expected to make.

Let's get something clear. When Phaneuf wasn't scoring, I had zero problem with it. He wasn't noticeable on the ice. That's great for a dman. That's what you want. Phaneuf does have some offensive talent but he shouldn't be going balls out to make fancy scoring plays unless he knows his defensive zone is under control.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Just couldn't resist..Big OT goal for the captain..I like to celebrate when he does good things

 

[maplesyrup]

He may not be a true #1. He may not be an ideal captain (or captain material at all.) He's probably overpaid. All that being said, I like that he's on the team.

 

[Boston Leaf]

He may not be a true #1. He may not be an ideal captain (or captain material at all.) He's probably overpaid. All that being said, I like that he's on the team.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts

 

[Kin]

I feel stupid bringing up the team GA/G. My point was that as a team we're playing well defensively so let's not harp on Phaneuf because it ain't that bad.

I suppose the difference is that I don't see the continuing discussion/evaluation of any player, particularly not an important one, as tantamount to "harping" on anything even if the opinion isn't all roses and sunshine and the team is doing well. Any team, good or bad, is a collection of moving parts that aren't all going to be as good as you'd like.

scrutiny is a good thing. It feeds analysis.