Contracts for the Big-3

[Zee]

I heard somewhere that the Leafs can still trade Nylander up to the trade deadline. BUT the other team can't play him until next season. Is that correct? And if so would a team out of the playoffs(I'm assuming only a team out of the playoffs would be interested in giving up assets) be willing to do it?

If Nylander doesn't sign by Dec 1st he can't play in the NHL this season for anyone but the Leafs could still trade him. Would make sense for a team who thought they were a playoff team but have had a disappointing season and want to "reset". Nylander would be a great piece for a team like that.

 

[L K]

His trade market definitely goes down if he is moved around the deadline.  His value would probably go back up again in the offseason when all teams could be in on trading for him.

 

[Bender]

Happened to TBay. At what point does more money matter? Like at the end of your career if you've made $50million does your life really materially change much if you make $60million or $70million? At what point do you go I'm ok with $50million if it means this staff keeps this core together long term and we make a run for it every year.

I mean, if you were negotiating your salary at work, and at the end of your career you could earn 1 million or 1.1 million would you not be looking for that 1.1 million? If you have 30 years of work, that extra $100k would only work out to an extra $3,333 a year. Not a big deal...per year.

I don't think we can fault anyone for trying to get what they think they are worth. It's their decision to not make anything if the company decides not to pay them.

Depends what the motivating factor is. I'm saying that when you make that much money is the motivating factor only money or is it something beyond that?

 

[Zee]

I wonder what the hell was said between Dubas and Nylander in that Swiss meeting?  I mean they were face to face, I assume Dubas was reassuring Nylander the Leafs want him long term, he's part of the plan etc etc and yet here we are, 13 days away from him missing the entire season.  Was it all just for show?  Did either side even care what was said in that meeting?  Can't believe we're at this point.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Happened to TBay. At what point does more money matter? Like at the end of your career if you've made $50million does your life really materially change much if you make $60million or $70million? At what point do you go I'm ok with $50million if it means this staff keeps this core together long term and we make a run for it every year.

I mean, if you were negotiating your salary at work, and at the end of your career you could earn 1 million or 1.1 million would you not be looking for that 1.1 million? If you have 30 years of work, that extra $100k would only work out to an extra $3,333 a year. Not a big deal...per year.

I don't think we can fault anyone for trying to get what they think they are worth. It's their decision to not make anything if the company decides not to pay them.

Depends what the motivating factor is. I'm saying that when you make that much money is the motivating factor only money or is it something beyond that?

I think that we would all like it to be about something more. I just don't think when there's that much of a difference the chance that you may one day win a Stanley cup is enough to take a 25% discount on what you feel you are worth.

 

[Kin]

Depends what the motivating factor is. I'm saying that when you make that much money is the motivating factor only money or is it something beyond that?

I think the problem there though is that people who think Nylander should take less to fit in with the cap here always sort of speak about his decision like there's some sort of concrete guarantee he has that being in Toronto will lead to more on-ice success than if he goes elsewhere when we don't know that and what we've seen in the past is that any sort of immediate talent advantage Toronto has over any other team is likely to be eroded as the years go on and eventually rendered meaningless. What percent chance is it that Toronto will have more success than, say, Carolina over Nylander's tenure? How do those odds change 3 or 5 years from now? Truth is, none of us know. Arguing that Nylander should be motivated by those things is arguing that he should be motivated by conjecture and argument. 

So other than money, which is at least tangible and definite, what should be motivating Nylander? Odds are he'll be playing with good players wherever he goes and signing with the Leafs at a rate for the benefit of the team means he's making his decision on the basis of something that he has no control over. He seems like a pretty self-contained guy who'll be living in Sweden most of the time so should he be motivated by what's best for his colleagues? His employers?

So it's not that money is the only thing that might be motivating him, it's that we have no real way of saying how other things actually affect him or how he views the various opportunities in front of him. There are a lot of people here who are arguing that the deal the Leafs want Nylander to sign would ultimately be in Nylander's interest when really, the only thing they're thinking of is their own interests.

 

[Kin]

Along those lines, do the people who think Nylander should take less money so he can "compete for a cup every year" or whatever also think the Leafs should give him a complete NMC/NTC? Or should he just hope that the Leafs keep him around?

 

[bustaheims]

Along those lines, do the people who think Nylander should take less money so he can "compete for a cup every year" or whatever also think the Leafs should give him a complete NMC/NTC? Or should he just hope that the Leafs keep him around?

Just an FYI - they can?t give him any trade protection until the 23/24 season. Players are only eligible for them if they?re also eligible to be a UFA.

 

[Frank E]

I don't think he'll get trade protection until 23-24.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't think he'll get trade protection until 23-24.

Bold statement, Frank. 

 

[Joe S.]

Along those lines, do the people who think Nylander should take less money so he can "compete for a cup every year" or whatever also think the Leafs should give him a complete NMC/NTC? Or should he just hope that the Leafs keep him around?

Take less money than what though? Than what he hypothetically thinks he deserves? No matter what he gets it?ll be a raise. He?s not getting less money.

 

[Bender]

Along those lines, do the people who think Nylander should take less money so he can "compete for a cup every year" or whatever also think the Leafs should give him a complete NMC/NTC? Or should he just hope that the Leafs keep him around?

Take less money than what though? Than what he hypothetically thinks he deserves? No matter what he gets it?ll be a raise. He?s not getting less money.

Yeah I mean I think I'm worth a million bucks at my employer, doesn't mean I actually am worth that

 

[Bender]

Depends what the motivating factor is. I'm saying that when you make that much money is the motivating factor only money or is it something beyond that?

I think the problem there though is that people who think Nylander should take less to fit in with the cap here always sort of speak about his decision like there's some sort of concrete guarantee he has that being in Toronto will lead to more on-ice success than if he goes elsewhere when we don't know that and what we've seen in the past is that any sort of immediate talent advantage Toronto has over any other team is likely to be eroded as the years go on and eventually rendered meaningless. What percent chance is it that Toronto will have more success than, say, Carolina over Nylander's tenure? How do those odds change 3 or 5 years from now? Truth is, none of us know. Arguing that Nylander should be motivated by those things is arguing that he should be motivated by conjecture and argument. 

So other than money, which is at least tangible and definite, what should be motivating Nylander? Odds are he'll be playing with good players wherever he goes and signing with the Leafs at a rate for the benefit of the team means he's making his decision on the basis of something that he has no control over. He seems like a pretty self-contained guy who'll be living in Sweden most of the time so should he be motivated by what's best for his colleagues? His employers?

So it's not that money is the only thing that might be motivating him, it's that we have no real way of saying how other things actually affect him or how he views the various opportunities in front of him. There are a lot of people here who are arguing that the deal the Leafs want Nylander to sign would ultimately be in Nylander's interest when really, the only thing they're thinking of is their own interests.

It's hard for me to read your argument and think there really is much more beyond money as a motivator to be honest with you. If he's learned anything from his father why wouldn't it be "take as much as you want because why would you do something more in the interest of your employer when the employer can trade you whenever they want?"

 

[Kin]

Take less money than what though? Than what he hypothetically thinks he deserves?

Yes, pretty much although I don't think there's anything all that hypothetical about it given that we're at page 112 or whatever of this thread about the rough nature of what Nylander is asking for.

 

[Kin]

It's hard for me to read your argument and think there really is much more beyond money as a motivator to be honest with you. If he's learned anything from his father why wouldn't it be "take as much as you want because why would you do something more in the interest of your employer when the employer can trade you whenever they want?"

Like I said, I don't think it's a question of whether or not he's motivated by anything other than money but whether or not he should be motivated by the things he can't control. He may want to win a cup or be motivated by where he might want to live but as has been pointed out to me, even if the Leafs wanted to they couldn't give him control over either of those things for some time. Money, at least, is something he can control through these negotiations.

I find it fairly hard to believe Nylander would have gotten advice from his father that was that specific. I tend to think it's more likely Nylander would have been told not to confuse his interests with the team's interests because no matter what they say to try and talk him into a below-market contract, the team will always be motivated  by what's best for them as a whole.

 

[IJustLurkHere]

Take less money than what though? Than what he hypothetically thinks he deserves?

Yes, pretty much although I don't think there's anything all that hypothetical about it given that we're at page 112 or whatever of this thread about the rough nature of what Nylander is asking for.

I've thought a while that one of the most interesting things about the standoff is that is IS hypothetical - there's a total lack of info and leaking to the media. The TO/Leafs press is voracious (many wouldn't put some of them past making stuff up entirely...) but all we've had is:
1) "Nylander wants Draisaitl money" (generally)
2) "Nylander hasn't budged from Draisatl money" (Kypreos)
3) "Leafs offer bring of 4 years <$20M" (Kypreos)

Other than that, it'll all speculation. No idea what the Leafs opener on a long term offer was, no idea what Nylander's counter on a bridge was. No real verification on the asks and offers we do have. No real sense of what either sides intent is. Just complete silence.

Frankly, at risk of wishful thinking, it's probably why I lean to thinking there's still a deal to be had. Rather than a narrative of a showdown to the Dec 1 deadline where either Nylander blinks or he sits - which is a pretty hostile negotiating style - neither side is seemingly trying to make the other look bad in the press.

It's kind of refreshing (but I'm refreshed already. Hurry up and get a deal done!)

 

[Bender]

It's hard for me to read your argument and think there really is much more beyond money as a motivator to be honest with you. If he's learned anything from his father why wouldn't it be "take as much as you want because why would you do something more in the interest of your employer when the employer can trade you whenever they want?"

Like I said, I don't think it's a question of whether or not he's motivated by anything other than money but whether or not he should be motivated by the things he can't control. He may want to win a cup or be motivated by where he might want to live but as has been pointed out to me, even if the Leafs wanted to they couldn't give him control over either of those things for some time. Money, at least, is something he can control through these negotiations.

I find it fairly hard to believe Nylander would have gotten advice from his father that was that specific. I tend to think it's more likely Nylander would have been told not to confuse his interests with the team's interests because no matter what they say to try and talk him into a below-market contract, the team will always be motivated  by what's best for them as a whole.

People speak anecdotally from experience all the time. I don't see how advice like that is highly unlikely. 

 

[dappleganger]

Where is Willy?

 

[hockeyfan1]

Should the Leafs opt to trade Nylander (by the trade desdline), here are better players than already mentioned by some media people, on the value-for-value (or at least something similar thereof) that they could get in return:


https://editorinleaf.com/2018/11/17/toronto-maple-leafs-acceptable-william-nylander-trades/

 

[Bullfrog]

Nylander is good; Nylander is great.