Coronavirus

[Stebro]

Masks are only efficient when it's the right type of a mask in the right situation. There's a reason why the healthcare only use it in certain situations for a limited amount of time. I agree that a high quality mask could be useful in situations where you can't social distance, but in general you should avoid those situations. The issue I have is that a lot in the west seem to think you are some kind of a hero if you wear a mask regardless of the situation and regardless of the quality of the mask. If you are sick you should stay at home, there's a risk that you may feel that you can't get covid or spread it regardless of the mask you are wearing.

A lot of european countries force their population to wear masks, yet the infection rate is increasing. In Sweden it's going down.

I still think that the west largely has been in panic mode and I think it hurts business as well as the population. Unemployment will increase, debt will increase, mental health issues will increase, no one knows what will happen to kids long term health from this stress etc. I think this has largely been ignored by the west. Europe had a pandemic plan, Sweden followed it the rest didn't. I know that a lot of countries have a very negative view of Sweden right now, but I'm very grateful that I live here right now. Our gdp is expected to grow over 4% next year, we've invested more to try to combat mental health issues, and our debt is much lower than most countries in Europe.

 

[Bullfrog]

The USA has had over 6 MILLION cases with 185,000 DEATHS.

They should be panicking.

 

[Kin]

Our gdp is expected to grow over 4% next year

Because everyones GDP has been shrinking that's not really that big a deal. Global projected GDP growth for 2021 is 5.4% and countries like Germany and Denmark are likewise above 5%. So there's really no evidence that the route Sweden has taken has led to stronger economic recovery than anyone else's.

 

[Bender]

Masks are only efficient when it's the right type of a mask in the right situation. There's a reason why the healthcare only use it in certain situations for a limited amount of time. I agree that a high quality mask could be useful in situations where you can't social distance, but in general you should avoid those situations. The issue I have is that a lot in the west seem to think you are some kind of a hero if you wear a mask regardless of the situation and regardless of the quality of the mask. If you are sick you should stay at home, there's a risk that you may feel that you can't get covid or spread it regardless of the mask you are wearing.

A lot of european countries force their population to wear masks, yet the infection rate is increasing. In Sweden it's going down.

I still think that the west largely has been in panic mode and I think it hurts business as well as the population. Unemployment will increase, debt will increase, mental health issues will increase, no one knows what will happen to kids long term health from this stress etc. I think this has largely been ignored by the west. Europe had a pandemic plan, Sweden followed it the rest didn't. I know that a lot of countries have a very negative view of Sweden right now, but I'm very grateful that I live here right now. Our gdp is expected to grow over 4% next year, we've invested more to try to combat mental health issues, and our debt is much lower than most countries in Europe.

I can only deal with strawman arguments for so long before they get tiresome. Nobody is saying masks are a panacea. Nobody is saying pretend like everything is normal because you have a mask. I don't know where you're getting your information from if you think that governments believe masks are the magic bullet to this - they obviously aren't. Having said that, they are a low cost measure that can have a positive effect. If you want me to link to articles that reference legitimate scientific journals I can because I'm getting tired of arguing without sufficient backing evidence.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/who-mask-study-confirms-effectiveness-1.5607318
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/new-study-suggests-wearing-a-face-mask-at-home-could-help-limit-spread-of-covid-19-1.4959360
https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/07/418181/one-more-reason-wear-mask-youll-get-less-sick-covid-19
https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2020/08/new-coronavirus-cases-down-in-ohio-after-statewide-mask-order-dramatically-so-in-some-counties.html


Using masks as a point that Sweden's infection rates are going down while others in Europe are going up is meaningless unless you're implying masks aren't a panacea... which we all know that they aren't. But I think I've explained why I don't want people in my apartment building loitering in common areas unmasked. They shouldn't be loitering in the first place but absent that, there is very little downside risk to mask wearing unless mask users are completely oblivious to needing to continue distancing... which again this position is refuted by actual evidence rather than whataboutism.

https://twitter.com/VoiceOfFranky/status/1272724641233211392?s=20

One last point on masks: yes, there are variables at play. Fit and material matter - some materials are better than others. But to quote Michael Ryan of the WHO, perfection is the enemy of the good. You don't need perfect masks or perfect mask wearing to make a difference. All measures as you mentioned above like physical distancing, staying home, hand washing IN ADDITION to mask wearing where distancing cannot be possible are all bullets in the chamber. There is no reason to purposely remove a bullet.

Regarding GDP, you can't just pick and choose comparisons that look favourable to Sweden. It's GDP fell more than in other Nordic countries: https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-gdp-falls-8pc-in-q2-worse-nordic-neighbors-2020-8

I get you're from Sweden and you want to defend its policy, but to be quite frank, I couldn't give a rat's ass about blindly defending Ontario's/Canada's policy just because I live here. There's plenty we can improve on and a lot that our governments should be taken to task for.

 

[Bender]

The USA has had over 6 MILLION cases with 185,000 DEATHS.

They should be panicking.

Really? Because if Sweden were the USA they'd have more deaths than that.  :-X

 

[Kin]

I don't know where you're getting your information from if you think that governments believe masks are the magic bullet to this - they obviously aren't.

Yeah, the contention that wearing a mask is being seen as some sort of especially laudable heroism is just such an inversion of reality from everything I've seen. Even the most absolutely positive pro-mask people I see view it not as some sort of particularly valorous act but rather the barest minimum of things you can do for the sake of everyone.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1301557271307091969

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1301557271307091969

Sweet let's definitely be cool with 70% of us getting this thing.

 

[Highlander]

https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1301557271307091969

Sweet let's definitely be cool with 70% of us getting this thing.

That is very scary s__t indeed. 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

https://twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1301557271307091969

That's what I was thinking when Matthews got it.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1303341491696406531

The back to school 'plan' probably isn't going to help this. Stay as safe as you can, everyone.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

https://twitter.com/celliottability/status/1303334106051366912

Our 7-day average was down to 80.3 cases/day on August 14th. It's now at 159.3 and potentially rising. Not really a great way to start school/fall weather time.

 

[bustaheims]

https://twitter.com/celliottability/status/1303334106051366912

Our 7-day average was down to 80.3 cases/day on August 14th. It's now at 159.3 and potentially rising. Not really a great way to start school/fall weather time.

I said to my family this week that I don't see in class learning lasting past Thanksgiving. I may have been overly generous.

 

[Bullfrog]

I hope it's on a district-by-district basis if that's true. Because I'd hate to see school cancelled where I am because of a deluge of cases in higher density populations.

 

[Bender]

https://twitter.com/celliottability/status/1303334106051366912

Our 7-day average was down to 80.3 cases/day on August 14th. It's now at 159.3 and potentially rising. Not really a great way to start school/fall weather time.

I said to my family this week that I don't see in class learning lasting past Thanksgiving. I may have been overly generous.

Just looking at various epidemiologists rt estimations we're not doing too well... People are very good at forgetting exponential growth math.

Also Sickkids pushing the idea that kids don't transmit is asinine. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I think they will be silently spreading it to teachers and parents. Hope Im wrong.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Also Sickkids pushing the idea that kids don't transmit is asinine. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Source? I must have missed this.

 

[Bender]

Also Sickkids pushing the idea that kids don't transmit is asinine. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Source? I must have missed this.

http://www.sickkids.ca/PDFs/About-SickKids/81497-COVID19-Recommendations-for-School-Reopening-SickKids-JUNE.pdf

They present it here as a hypothesis on page 3 but the gov't and even Sickkids has run with this assumption as far as it could logically go. Co-worker of mine said he and his spouse sat in on an online webinar with Sickkids and they said generally kids were better off going to school and children transmitting upward to adults seemed low. Even if this is not what they said verbatim if this is what he got after sitting in I think presenting this hypothesis as more than a "we don't know" is, to me, unethical. There is some questioning of this hypothesis as some studies show that kids actually have a higher viral load than adults in many cases even if they are asymptomatic: https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-635/

There simply isn't enough for us to call that or not - it's a new and complicated illness, but children are main drivers of getting adults & grandparents sick in a general sense for other things, and there is data that this occurs with pneumococcal bacteria where kids get sick with it and don't necessarily have bad symptoms but grandparents can get very sick, and just generally I find that parents with young kids are far, far, far more often sick than I am.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm much less critical of what Sick Kids has said. They clarify here: "Finally, it is important to note that these recommendations reflect the evidence available at the present time and may evolve as new evidence emerges and as information is gathered from other jurisdictions that have opened schools already." Also, I'm supportive of their view that the overall health affect on children from the shut down might have a bigger impact.

While I'd assume you're correct in that families with children will probably have more instances of infections, this is also based on status quo. The schools -- as imperfect as the plan is (and I think it deserves some criticism) -- are not operating on the status quo. There have increased hygiene practices, contact tracing, etc. that didn't exist before. So while I think the general assumption remains correct, I'd imagine the instances of general infections -- including other coronaviruses, rhinovirus, influenza, etc. -- will be reduced.

That being said, I'm actually predicting schools will be shut down again once flu season hits. One fever or cough will send some parents into a panic. While it's only been one day, I'm pretty happy with how my son's school is handling things. I'm fairly confident outbreaks can be managed.

 

[Bender]

I'm much less critical of what Sick Kids has said. They clarify here: "Finally, it is important to note that these recommendations reflect the evidence available at the present time and may evolve as new evidence emerges and as information is gathered from other jurisdictions that have opened schools already." Also, I'm supportive of their view that the overall health affect on children from the shut down might have a bigger impact.

While I'd assume you're correct in that families with children will probably have more instances of infections, this is also based on status quo. The schools -- as imperfect as the plan is (and I think it deserves some criticism) -- are not operating on the status quo. There have increased hygiene practices, contact tracing, etc. that didn't exist before. So while I think the general assumption remains correct, I'd imagine the instances of general infections -- including other coronaviruses, rhinovirus, influenza, etc. -- will be reduced.

That being said, I'm actually predicting schools will be shut down again once flu season hits. One fever or cough will send some parents into a panic. While it's only been one day, I'm pretty happy with how my son's school is handling things. I'm fairly confident outbreaks can be managed.

No question, kids need to go back to school. I think the issue I have here is why is there not more use of the precautionary principle until we get more evidence re: children transmitting? The government will hide behind the Sickkids document if things don't go well so my view is they're somewhat enabling a return to school that I think seems like it could be handled better. I think the guidance could have been a lot more robust. There's also talk of amalgamation of classes and larger class sizes than pre-pandemic (lack of enough teachers?) which is kind of bizarre.

I think to some extent we're forgetting the teachers in all this. Teachers are going to be doing all the implementation and hard work with the kids themselves. I don't envy them, and I think we should view them maybe in the same breath as health care workers right now.

Sent from my SM-G986W using Tapatalk

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Also Sickkids pushing the idea that kids don't transmit is asinine. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Source? I must have missed this.

http://www.sickkids.ca/PDFs/About-SickKids/81497-COVID19-Recommendations-for-School-Reopening-SickKids-JUNE.pdf

They present it here as a hypothesis on page 3

Ok, I read it, (the verbiage is actually on page 2). It doesn't say anything even close to "kids don't transmit" which is what you've attributed to them in your quote; they've simply added some reviewed theory on why it they might not be as much as feared, which is a massive difference. That thinking may evolve with more research, and they've stated as much.

I think pretty highly of SK, hence why I donate a fair bit annually - I think one has to be careful when attributing controversial statements without context.