General Leafs Talk v2.0

[mr grieves]

Does anybody else find it ironic that for years during the Burke era we were fed the line that the Leafs were going to take advantage of teams that were in trouble with the Cap...and now WE"RE the team that others will now take advantage of?

Not particularly. The reason people said that during the Burke years was because the team stunk and could easily be below the cap. Then the team got better and they're closer to the cap. That's typically how things progress in a cap system.

Except that the team costs more, how do we know they get 'better'? Some guys matured, their ELC's expired, and those now better players were signed to contracts that cost more (Kadri, Gunnarson) -- all of $3m more. But with the exception of bringing in Bernier, I don't think they clearly got better by adding anything. They traded skill for a somewhat grittier sort of player -- not clearly better, just different. And more expensive.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I thought the following was a pretty solid piece on Phil Kessel, touches on the fact he gets little to no respect despite being statistically one of the top couple of players in the league and also explains a little about why he is more cautious with the media than most.

http://mobile.thn.com/articles/53496-Phil-Kessel-is-whatever-you-want-him-to-be.html

 

[Kin]

Except that the team costs more, how do we know they get 'better'? Some guys matured, their ELC's expired, and those now better players were signed to contracts that cost more (Kadri, Gunnarson) -- all of $3m more. But with the exception of bringing in Bernier, I don't think they clearly got better by adding anything. They traded skill for a somewhat grittier sort of player -- not clearly better, just different. And more expensive.

Well, not to derail your attempt to turn every single thread into a referendum on Nonis' decisions this off-season but you'll notice that both the OP and myself refer to the difference between what we heard during "the Burke years" and now. Since then and now lots of players have gotten raises/been added to the team at a higher cost than the players they replaced well before you get to this off-season and that accounts for the bulk of the difference between a team at the cap floor and one at the ceiling. Adding what the team added this off-season(which was only about 6 million or so, 4.8 or thereabouts if you include the loss of Franson) obviously pushes them closer to the cap but the inevitable march upward is mainly coming from within as the team improves. That's largely unavoidable.

 

[oakl0008]

I thought the following was a pretty solid piece on Phil Kessel, touches on the fact he gets little to no respect despite being statistically one of the top couple of players in the league and also explains a little about why he is more cautious with the media than most.

http://mobile.thn.com/articles/53496-Phil-Kessel-is-whatever-you-want-him-to-be.html

Thanks for the link. Good article. 

Also hearing something good about Franson, take it for what it is:

SN 590 The FAN ‏@FAN590 41m
#BradyAndWalker host @FAN590Walker is reporting that RFA D Cody Franson will sign a one-year deal around $2 million w/ the #Leafs today

 

[mr grieves]

Except that the team costs more, how do we know they get 'better'? Some guys matured, their ELC's expired, and those now better players were signed to contracts that cost more (Kadri, Gunnarson) -- all of $3m more. But with the exception of bringing in Bernier, I don't think they clearly got better by adding anything. They traded skill for a somewhat grittier sort of player -- not clearly better, just different. And more expensive.

Well, not to derail your attempt to turn every single thread into a referendum on Nonis' decisions this off-season but you'll notice that both the OP and myself refer to the difference between what we heard during "the Burke years" and now. Since then and now lots of players have gotten raises/been added to the team at a higher cost than the players they replaced well before you get to this off-season and that accounts for the bulk of the difference between a team at the cap floor and one at the ceiling. Adding what the team added this off-season(which was only about 6 million or so, 4.8 or thereabouts if you include the loss of Franson) obviously pushes them closer to the cap but the inevitable march upward is mainly coming from within as the team improves. That's largely unavoidable.

Yeah, I was looking at the years before. The team's always been about at the cap. While some worse players were replaced by better, higher cost players, we've also seen other overpriced, underperforming players were replaced by better, cheaper options (better players still on ELCs or RFA contracts). And the raises given to talent that's developed over the Burke years and into the Nonis ones (the 'coming from within as the team improves') are relatively few and, I think we agree, mostly from the periphery of the core: Lupul,  Kadri, Bozak, Gunnarson... who else? 

It just seems the team's marched farther up that hill than you'd expect, given that key parts of their core haven't yet signed the large, expensive extensions that are the inevitable part of the increase. The Leafs are still counting on guys playing above their value their make the cap work, and I don't know how that works when the guys doing that are your core -- Kessel, Gardiner, Reimer, Bernier -- and they'll soon need new contracts.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought of Clarkson's contract and Grabovski getting bought out. And man, that Bozak contract..sheesh.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I'm just hoping this is the year that Colaiacovo challenges for the Norris, he can play top pair with Kabs.

I think Reichel could have a big season too, he has been dynamite on the international stage.

 

[Deebo]

Some talk out there that McLaren could be LTIR bound...

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Some talk out there that McLaren could be LTIR bound...

Well, it is a broken bone, so isn't that normally a 6 week thing? Wouldn't that qualify as an LTIR injury?

 

[Deebo]

Some talk out there that McLaren could be LTIR bound...

Well, it is a broken bone, so isn't that normally a 6 week thing? Wouldn't that qualify as an LTIR injury?

24 calendar days and 10 regular season games have to be missed.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I thought you could put a guy on the IR and get some relief if he was out for 10 days or more.

Perhaps that's an old rule or does it only free up the roster spot and not the salary?

 

[bustaheims]

I thought you could put a guy on the IR and get some relief if he was out for 10 days or more.

Perhaps that's an old rule or does it only free up the roster spot and not the salary?

Straight IR is 7 days minimum, but provides no cap relief. LTIR is 10 games or 24 days and allows teams to exceed the cap by the amount of the player's salary while he's on LTIR (if necessary, and only for the period that the player is on IR - you don't get to bank the unused portion). That's the way it's been since the cap was put in place. Short-term IR just frees up the roster spot.

 

[pnjunction]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought of Clarkson's contract and Grabovski getting bought out. And man, that Bozak contract..sheesh.

Just read the posts from all summer long man...

To me the bottom line on Bozak is that we paid market rate and if we hadn't we'd be ridiculously weak down the middle and on the draw, and also take a hit to the PK that finally improved last year.

 

[Jalili]

So I was just wondering what everyone thought of Clarkson's contract and Grabovski getting bought out. And man, that Bozak contract..sheesh.

Just read the posts from all summer long man...

To me the bottom line on Bozak is that we paid market rate and if we hadn't we'd be ridiculously weak down the middle and on the draw, and also take a hit to the PK that finally improved last year.

I think we got Bozak at a pretty good rate, and I say that partially because he is quite a bit younger than a lot of the UFAs that were out there.

When you look at the long-term scope of the 5 year deal he signed, he'll only be 31 in the final year of the contract. That's pretty good in my mind. To put in persective, Stephen Weiss is 30 this year in the first year of a 5 year deal, and has a pretty big injury history.

 

[bustaheims]

I think we got Bozak at a pretty good rate, and I say that partially because he is quite a bit younger than a lot of the UFAs that were out there.

When you look at the long-term scope of the 5 year deal he signed, he'll only be 31 in the final year of the contract. That's pretty good in my mind. To put in persective, Stephen Weiss is 30 this year in the first year of a 5 year deal, and has a pretty big injury history.

Yeah. Bozak's contract really isn't all that bad. If he produces at the same rate he has over the past 2 seasons, he's full value for the money. I mean, $4.2M for a ~20 goal, ~50 point centre who's good on the draw, defensively responsible and can be used in all situations is roughly UFA value right now, and, if the cap goes up, could look pretty appealing in years 4 and 5.

 

[Andy007]

I think we got Bozak at a pretty good rate, and I say that partially because he is quite a bit younger than a lot of the UFAs that were out there.

When you look at the long-term scope of the 5 year deal he signed, he'll only be 31 in the final year of the contract. That's pretty good in my mind. To put in persective, Stephen Weiss is 30 this year in the first year of a 5 year deal, and has a pretty big injury history.

Yeah. Bozak's contract really isn't all that bad. If he produces at the same rate he has over the past 2 seasons, he's full value for the money. I mean, $4.2M for a ~20 goal, ~50 point centre who's good on the draw, defensively responsible and can be used in all situations is roughly UFA value right now, and, if the cap goes up, could look pretty appealing in years 4 and 5.

It might just be me but I think a guy has to actually score 20 goals and/or 50 points at least once to be considered a perennial 20 goal, 50 point centre. 

That being said, I don't particularly dislike his contract, I just don't see Bozak offering anything more than one could get out of Bolland (aside from the faceoff prowess). Essentially the Leafs have two 3rd line centre quality players making 7.5+ million per year.

 

[bustaheims]

It might just be me but I think a guy has to actually score 20 goals and/or 50 points at least once to be considered a perennial 20 goal, 50 point centre. 

I'm pretty sure I never used the word "perennial." However, over the past two seasons, Bozak produced at a pace that would have seen him score 20 goals and 51 points over an 82 game season.

 

[Andy007]

It might just be me but I think a guy has to actually score 20 goals and/or 50 points at least once to be considered a perennial 20 goal, 50 point centre. 

I'm pretty sure I never used the word "perennial." However, over the past two seasons, Bozak produced at a pace that would have seen him score 20 goals and 51 points over an 82 game season.

Calling him a 20 goal 50 point player assumes he either has, or will, consistently put up 20 goals and 50 points, which he hasn't.

In his only full season he scored 15 with 30 points. Projections are all fine and dandy but they don't mean anything if the guy doesn't play the remaining games.

 

[bustaheims]

Calling him a 20 goal 50 point player assume he either has, or will, consistently put up 20 goals and 50 points, which he hasn't.

In his only full season he scored 15 with 30 points. Projections are all fine and dandy but they don't mean anything if the guy doesn't play the remaining games.

Which is why I said ~20 goals and ~50 points - you know, that little symbol there that means he gets near those numbers even if he doesn't hit them, like he did in 11/12 and like he was on pace to do over an 82 game season this past season.

 

[Andy007]

Calling him a 20 goal 50 point player assume he either has, or will, consistently put up 20 goals and 50 points, which he hasn't.

In his only full season he scored 15 with 30 points. Projections are all fine and dandy but they don't mean anything if the guy doesn't play the remaining games.

Which is why I said ~20 goals and ~50 points - you know, that little symbol there that means he gets near those numbers even if he doesn't hit them, like he did in 11/12 and like he was on pace to do over an 82 game season this past season.

And Lupul is a potential 55 goal scorer based on his pace from last year. Means nothing until these guys actually play a full season. Which Bozak has done once *

* 82 games, 15 goals, 30 points.

Hopefully Bozak proves me wrong but I see 20 goals and 50 points as the biggest stretch of a ceiling for him.