General Leafs Talk

[Madferret]

So I look at tonights schedule and I see The Caps vs the Sens. My first insticnt is to hope the Caps DESTROY the Sens... and then a sledgehammer of reality hits me and says as a fan wanting the Leafs to make the play-offs I should be cheering for the Senat..... for Otta... for...... Sorry, I just can't bring myself to say it, so... I should be cheering against the Caps.

This is wrong!     

Surrender....surrender....

 

[caver]

LUKE... COME TO THE DARK SIDE!!!

 

[Tigger]

So I look at tonights schedule and I see The Caps vs the Sens. My first insticnt is to hope the Caps DESTROY the Sens... and then a sledgehammer of reality hits me and says as a fan wanting the Leafs to make the play-offs I should be cheering for the Senat..... for Otta... for...... Sorry, I just can't bring myself to say it, so... I should be cheering against the Caps.

This is wrong!     

Surrender....surrender....

It's a one night stand Dorothy, I'll drink you pretty and regret it tomorrow...

 

[The Red Polar Bear]

So I look at tonights schedule and I see The Caps vs the Sens. My first insticnt is to hope the Caps DESTROY the Sens... and then a sledgehammer of reality hits me and says as a fan wanting the Leafs to make the play-offs I should be cheering for the Senat..... for Otta... for...... Sorry, I just can't bring myself to say it, so... I should be cheering against the Caps.

This is wrong!     

An alternative proposal:

If you believe that WSH will eventually win their division, then their point total will be irrelevant. If they beat the Sens, that'll keep us 5 points back with two games in hand, making it a 7-8-9-10 battle at the end instead of an 8-9-10. (4 teams for 2 spots instead of 3 teams for 1 spot).

There are bright sides either way. Just no 3-point game, kthx.

 

[TML fan]

A question was posed in the goaltending thread about what we think of the Leafs D. I figure I'll answer it in here as I have a few ideas on the subject.

I like our D. I don't think the problem is personnel. The Leafs don't really play a defensive system. Their game is speed, and their defense is their offense. When the Leafs are going well, they don't really spend a lot of time in their own end. Where they get into trouble is when they get bogged down by teams that play a really tight defensive system and don't allow the Leafs a chance to build up any speed. They are a rush team. I believe it was Hitchcock who said the Leafs are the most dangerous team in the NHL off the rush. I don't think that was just lip service on game day. I think there is something to that.

When the Leafs play a team that likes to bog down the play, they don't really have the ability to counteract that. That is, they don't really have any other way of playing except using speed and being aggressive. I think that in order for the Leafs to be successful the way they are built (speed game) is that they have to compliment that speed with an aggressive and physical forecheck. Most of the Leafs' size and physicality is localized on one line that they don't use very often and doesn't possess any scoring ability, or it's in their D corps.

Most of the time they are getting hemmed into their own end because they lack the ability to win puck battles along the boards. They just get checked or get outmuscled. They are forced into a lot of turnovers because they are being so tightly checked that they don't have time to gather any speed or are forced into making a bad play which results in the forwards getting caught leaving the zone without the puck and odd-man attacks coming the other way. Either that, or they are forced to just chip it out which keeps the opposing team on the attack.

This affects them in the offensive zone too. When their speed gets bogged down, they are forced to dump it in, and they don't really have the ability to win battles or force turnovers. This is why you often see guys trying to skate through three players to gain the zone. They are trying to force the D to back off, but disciplined defensive teams will just stand them up and either force the play offside or force a dump-in where they are confident they will be able to recover the puck.

The rest of the time, the Leafs are just outplayed by more skilled teams. Can't really do much about that. I think the issues in the defensive zone would be a lot less worrisome if the Leafs added some skilled size to their lineup. A couple of big, skilled wingers for the 2nd line, and maybe a skilled, big centre for the top line (not to knock Bozak. I think he's done a fantastic job this year). In general just becoming a more physical team without sacrificing too much of their speed. I know it's a tall order and it's not going to happen overnight, and I've kind of gone on a rant here, but I think those are the keys to improving the defensive issues plaguing this team.

Obviously, they need better goaltending too.

 

[Tigger]

Some fair points there, contract aside Nash does kind of fit the bill...

 

[Erndog]

Some fair points there, contract aside Nash does kind of fit the bill...

Yeah, he does.  We need a big, strong winger who can win battles, get into some dirty areas and score.  Nash, contract aside, most certainly fits the bill.  If he was making $5.5 or $6M we would be fawning ourselves over him.  The additional $1.5-2M is the price you pay to acquire a top line talent.

Some real good points in there TML Fan and I agree with quite a bit of what you said. 

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, he does.  We need a big, strong winger who can win battles, get into some dirty areas and score. 

And his name is Bobby Ryan. Seriously. I cannot stress this enough. Overpay to get Ryan if you have to. The almost $3M in cap difference will allow you to replace those assets that much more easily.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I also think overpaying for Bobby Ryan will cost less in assets than it will take to get Nash, based on my read of that situation.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Some fair points there, contract aside Nash does kind of fit the bill...

Yeah, he does.  We need a big, strong winger who can win battles, get into some dirty areas and score.  Nash, contract aside, most certainly fits the bill.  If he was making $5.5 or $6M we would be fawning ourselves over him.  The additional $1.5-2M is the price you pay to acquire a top line talent.

Some real good points in there TML Fan and I agree with quite a bit of what you said. 

I'll third that, great post TML Fan.

I think Kulemin use to play that game the last couple of years, but this year, other than that big hit a couple months ago, he's been less on the body defensively. I'm sure everybody here remembers what I'm talking about, he thrilled everybody with his play on both sides of the ice. I guess the question is, is whether or not he is going to come back to that.

McArthur on the other hand is not strong enough to win the battles IMO. Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player and he has had some success here, but as TML Fan points out, when we play the trap teams, or at least the ones that clog the neutral zone or play a physical game, he's less effective.

The third line is marshmallow soft, no sense going there, we know what we need on that line. So yeah, the forth line is where the hitting is coming from and they don't play a lot, as stated.

I think a big winger and that elusive big top line center are what this team needs so badly. It's frustrating to watch this team get pushed around, I end up shutting it off sometimes, before I smash the plasma.

 

[Redleaf]

Some fair points there, contract aside Nash does kind of fit the bill...

Yeah, he does.  We need a big, strong winger who can win battles, get into some dirty areas and score.  Nash, contract aside, most certainly fits the bill.  If he was making $5.5 or $6M we would be fawning ourselves over him.  The additional $1.5-2M is the price you pay to acquire a top line talent.

Some real good points in there TML Fan and I agree with quite a bit of what you said. 

I'll third that, great post TML Fan.

I think Kulemin use to play that game the last couple of years, but this year, other than that big hit a couple months ago, he's been less on the body defensively. I'm sure everybody here remembers what I'm talking about, he thrilled everybody with his play on both sides of the ice. I guess the question is, is whether or not he is going to come back to that.

McArthur on the other hand is not strong enough to win the battles IMO. Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player and he has had some success here, but as TML Fan points out, when we play the trap teams, or at least the ones that clog the neutral zone or play a physical game, he's less effective.

The third line is marshmallow soft, no sense going there, we know what we need on that line. So yeah, the forth line is where the hitting is coming from and they don't play a lot, as stated.

I think a big winger and that elusive big top line center are what this team needs so badly. It's frustrating to watch this team get pushed around, I end up shutting it off sometimes, before I smash the plasma.

So, essentially Carter and Nash and a goaltender and we're gold?

Lupul-Carter-Kessel
Nash-Grabovski-Kulemin

I have to admit, that looks like a damn sweet top 6.

 

[ZBBM]

Some fair points there, contract aside Nash does kind of fit the bill...

Yeah, he does.  We need a big, strong winger who can win battles, get into some dirty areas and score.  Nash, contract aside, most certainly fits the bill.  If he was making $5.5 or $6M we would be fawning ourselves over him.  The additional $1.5-2M is the price you pay to acquire a top line talent.

Some real good points in there TML Fan and I agree with quite a bit of what you said. 

I'll third that, great post TML Fan.

I think Kulemin use to play that game the last couple of years, but this year, other than that big hit a couple months ago, he's been less on the body defensively. I'm sure everybody here remembers what I'm talking about, he thrilled everybody with his play on both sides of the ice. I guess the question is, is whether or not he is going to come back to that.

McArthur on the other hand is not strong enough to win the battles IMO. Don't get me wrong, I like him as a player and he has had some success here, but as TML Fan points out, when we play the trap teams, or at least the ones that clog the neutral zone or play a physical game, he's less effective.

The third line is marshmallow soft, no sense going there, we know what we need on that line. So yeah, the forth line is where the hitting is coming from and they don't play a lot, as stated.

I think a big winger and that elusive big top line center are what this team needs so badly. It's frustrating to watch this team get pushed around, I end up shutting it off sometimes, before I smash the plasma.

4x.  Very nice analysis TML Fan.

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

Burke can finesse the cap.  That's one area where I have never doubted him. 

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

So, essentially Carter and Nash and a goaltender and we're gold?

You know, I would love Nash here, that would take care of one. I'm not opposed to Ryan, as Busta points out, but.... While I like Carter as a player, I'm not convinced that he plays the type of game at the center position as what I'm talking about. Getzlaf, when he is on his game is the type of center I'm referring to.

The goalie, well, I'm not sold on both Reimer and Goose being write offs yet. I will agree with what Allaire stated today as my official position at this point. I've seen both goalies play very well when the Leafs are playing their game well, so I'm willing to let them develop a bit more before pulling the plug. I mean, if Burke goes out and lands a more experienced guy, well, it's his team, so you have to go with it.

 

[bustaheims]

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

So is Ryan, with the benefit of being younger and on a better contract. He's just as, if not more, physical as Nash (he's been credited with more hits for the past 2+ seasons), has scored at a better rate (and with significantly less PP time), has no injuries on his track record (so far, obviously), fits better into the Leafs core age-wise, etc. Nash is a "sexier" acquisition, I get that, but, in terms of which would be better, I truly believe it's Ryan - the talent difference between the two is much less significant than the cap and age difference between them. That, and Ryan is just about to get into his prime, whereas Nash only has a coupld years left of his.

And, honestly, neither of can really judge the whole captain thing. Neither of us are inside any NHL dressing rooms. We really have no idea how good either of them are at that job.

 

[Tigger]

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

So is Ryan, with the benefit of being younger and on a better contract. He's just as, if not more, physical as Nash (he's been credited with more hits for the past 2+ seasons), has scored at a better rate (and with significantly less PP time), has no injuries on his track record (so far, obviously), fits better into the Leafs core age-wise, etc. Nash is a "sexier" acquisition, I get that, but, in terms of which would be better, I truly believe it's Ryan - the talent difference between the two is much less significant than the cap and age difference between them. That, and Ryan is just about to get into his prime, whereas Nash only has a coupld years left of his.

And, honestly, neither of can really judge the whole captain thing. Neither of us are inside any NHL dressing rooms. We really have no idea how good either of them are at that job.

It's fair to say that Ryan could be a better option but is Anaheim more or less inclined to trade him compared to Nash? I'm not sure they will having made such an impressive turnaround.

Here's hoping the Samueli tapes haven't been entirely handed over yet...

 

[Redleaf]

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

So is Ryan, with the benefit of being younger and on a better contract. He's just as, if not more, physical as Nash (he's been credited with more hits for the past 2+ seasons), has scored at a better rate (and with significantly less PP time), has no injuries on his track record (so far, obviously), fits better into the Leafs core age-wise, etc. Nash is a "sexier" acquisition, I get that, but, in terms of which would be better, I truly believe it's Ryan - the talent difference between the two is much less significant than the cap and age difference between them. That, and Ryan is just about to get into his prime, whereas Nash only has a coupld years left of his.

And, honestly, neither of can really judge the whole captain thing. Neither of us are inside any NHL dressing rooms. We really have no idea how good either of them are at that job.

I can see your argument here, and perhaps after Nash moves elsewhere Burke can get something done in the off season to bring in Ryan. I do agree with keeping the star players around the same age group moving forward, and Ryan is a better fit in that respect.

 

[armche123]

I have to say that going into Mondays Trade Deadline, although my anticipation of a big name player being signed (i.e. Getzlaf, Nash, E. Staal which are ones that I've mentioned in the past) has been high, I do go into this period with a little more trust in Burke's decisions.

 

[bustaheims]

It's fair to say that Ryan could be a better option but is Anaheim more or less inclined to trade him compared to Nash? I'm not sure they will having made such an impressive turnaround.

Depends on how realistic they are about the team. THey're still in 13th place and still 6 points out of 8, even after this great run they've been on. Their entire secondary scoring group could be retiring after this season (and, it's not great to begin with). They could very well look at trading Ryan as an option to help bring into some younger scoring depth to add to the couple promising prospects they have in their system.

 

[ZBBM]

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

So is Ryan, with the benefit of being younger and on a better contract. He's just as, if not more, physical as Nash (he's been credited with more hits for the past 2+ seasons), has scored at a better rate (and with significantly less PP time), has no injuries on his track record (so far, obviously), fits better into the Leafs core age-wise, etc. Nash is a "sexier" acquisition, I get that, but, in terms of which would be better, I truly believe it's Ryan - the talent difference between the two is much less significant than the cap and age difference between them. That, and Ryan is just about to get into his prime, whereas Nash only has a coupld years left of his.

And, honestly, neither of can really judge the whole captain thing. Neither of us are inside any NHL dressing rooms. We really have no idea how good either of them are at that job.

First bolded: this matters, actually.  In a market like ours.

Second bolded:  Dubious.  No way to know that.  There's no indication Nash will be declining anytime soon.

Third bolded: If we really adopted this as the standard for commenting, we might as well shut this site down right now.  It is our God-given right as fans to speculate boldly, and draw conclusions whose certainty is totally unwarranted, with respect to matters of which we have no direct knowledge, and never will.  8)

 

[bustaheims]

First bolded: this matters, actually.  In a market like ours.

I strongly disagree, to the point that I feel like this belief has lead to a number of questionable to bad deals made by the team in the past (Nolan, Leetch, bringing Clark back the 1st time, etc). What's better for the team is what is most important, and Ryan + $2.7M in cap space is better for the team than Nash, as fas as I'm concerned.

I'd actually argue this matters a lot less in a market like Toronto, where the team doesn't need big names to put butts in the seats.

Second bolded:  Dubious.  No way to know that.  There's no indication Nash will be declining anytime soon.

Based on trends for similar type players, it's a fairly safe assumption. It's obviously not an absolute, but history definitely suggests he's not likely to maintain his current level of play significantly beyond his 30th birthday. One could in fact argue that his play is already declining, as his point totals have dropped for each of the past couple seasons and, this season, he's on pace to have his worst output since his 2nd season in the league.

 

[Tigger]

It's fair to say that Ryan could be a better option but is Anaheim more or less inclined to trade him compared to Nash? I'm not sure they will having made such an impressive turnaround.

Depends on how realistic they are about the team. THey're still in 13th place and still 6 points out of 8, even after this great run they've been on. Their entire secondary scoring group could be retiring after this season (and, it's not great to begin with). They could very well look at trading Ryan as an option to help bring into some younger scoring depth to add to the couple promising prospects they have in their system.

Don't get me wrong, I think I'd lean your way if it was possible, hard to say from Anaheim's pov.