General Leafs Talk

[princedpw]

Sorry Busta but I think between Ryan and Nash, Nash is the ticket, cap hit or no.  He's a physical presence who's worn the C and if he came here would truly make a better captain than Dion IMO.  A top-rank franchise is supposed to ice top-rank talent.  He is that.

So is Ryan, with the benefit of being younger and on a better contract. He's just as, if not more, physical as Nash (he's been credited with more hits for the past 2+ seasons), has scored at a better rate (and with significantly less PP time), has no injuries on his track record (so far, obviously), fits better into the Leafs core age-wise, etc. Nash is a "sexier" acquisition, I get that, but, in terms of which would be better, I truly believe it's Ryan - the talent difference between the two is much less significant than the cap and age difference between them. That, and Ryan is just about to get into his prime, whereas Nash only has a coupld years left of his.

And, honestly, neither of can really judge the whole captain thing. Neither of us are inside any NHL dressing rooms. We really have no idea how good either of them are at that job.

I have to say I agree.  The age difference and cap hit are huge factors in Ryan's favour.  It's too bad Anaheim has turned it around so convincingly over the last month or so.  It will probably be tougher to pry him away than it would have been otherwise.

 

[princedpw]

One thing I should have added that I'm not sure about:  How much of Ryan's success should be attributed to playing with Getzlaf and Perry?  Has Ryan played exclusively with Getzlaf over the last couple of years?  Would Nash have 50-60 goals if he played with those guys?

 

[maplesyrup]

One thing I should have added that I'm not sure about:  How much of Ryan's success should be attributed to playing with Getzlaf and Perry?  Has Ryan played exclusively with Getzlaf over the last couple of years?  Would Nash have 50-60 goals if he played with those guys?

It's going to take an offer for either Ryan or Getzlaf that Anaheim can't refuse...

Schenn, Kulemin, our own first, and perhaps whatever futures we can get by dealing Grabo (or equivalent.) - That's how I see it anyway. 

 

[princedpw]

First bolded: this matters, actually.  In a market like ours.

I strongly disagree, to the point that I feel like this belief has lead to a number of questionable to bad deals made by the team in the past (Nolan, Leetch, bringing Clark back the 1st time, etc). What's better for the team is what is most important, and Ryan + $2.7M in cap space is better for the team than Nash, as fas as I'm concerned.

I'd actually argue this matters a lot less in a market like Toronto, where the team doesn't need big names to put butts in the seats.

I agree.  Also, while bring in Nash will have great instantaneous appeal, the novelty will wear out extremely quickly.  Very, very soon -- by next season, for sure -- fans will begin to measure Nash against his contract and will sour on him the second that he does not measure up to his contract.  Unfortunately for Nash, to measure up to his contract, he has to play on the level of Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos.  In other words, he pretty much has to lead the league in scoring or be close to it.  In the longer term, I think the fans will be happier to see Ryan out-performing a 5.5 million cap hit than Nash underperforming a 7.8 million cap hit, even if the end performance is the same or Nash is slightly better.

Still, having said all that, what I believe drives fans the most is winning.  Toronto's fans will fall in love with a 4th-liner who blocks a shot and tries hard, or a 3rd-liner that plays good defence and scores twice a month if they can see those players associated with wins in the standings.  They will sour on a 30-goal scorer if the goals don't come in wins.  And so assembling a winning team is what I care most about.

(Though, if I have to lose, I'd rather lose like the leafs are losing right now -- score a lot and give up a lot as opposed to not scoring and not giving up goals.)

 

[Tigger]

One thing I should have added that I'm not sure about:  How much of Ryan's success should be attributed to playing with Getzlaf and Perry?  Has Ryan played exclusively with Getzlaf over the last couple of years?  Would Nash have 50-60 goals if he played with those guys?

Hard to say, no doubt playing with good players is beneficial but I watched Ryan play a lot of hockey in junior and I can tell you he was head and shoulders above the rest most of the time, he's quite capable of making other players better too.

 

[bustaheims]

It's going to take an offer for either Ryan or Getzlaf that Anaheim can't refuse...

Schenn, Kulemin, our own first, and perhaps whatever futures we can get by dealing Grabo (or equivalent.) - That's how I see it anyway.

It's not going to cost any more to acquire Ryan or Getzlaf than it will to acquire Nash.

 

[bustaheims]

One thing I should have added that I'm not sure about:  How much of Ryan's success should be attributed to playing with Getzlaf and Perry?  Has Ryan played exclusively with Getzlaf over the last couple of years?  Would Nash have 50-60 goals if he played with those guys?

Honestly, I'm not sure the difference between Nash and Ryan is significantly more than 5-8 goals a season, if that.

 

[princedpw]

One thing I should have added that I'm not sure about:  How much of Ryan's success should be attributed to playing with Getzlaf and Perry?  Has Ryan played exclusively with Getzlaf over the last couple of years?  Would Nash have 50-60 goals if he played with those guys?

It's going to take an offer for either Ryan or Getzlaf that Anaheim can't refuse...

I'm sure it will.  I'm sure the same is true for Nash or for Carter.  If the cost for Nash and Ryan is the same, Busta's arguments that we should choose Ryan make quite a bit of sense to me at the moment.

Having said that, I'm not sure if acquiring another high-end winger is the solution or acquiring a defenceman like Suter is the way to solve our problems....

 

[Tigger]

I think it's both a winger and dman to that end prince, fwiw.

 

[maplesyrup]

It's going to take an offer for either Ryan or Getzlaf that Anaheim can't refuse...

Schenn, Kulemin, our own first, and perhaps whatever futures we can get by dealing Grabo (or equivalent.) - That's how I see it anyway.

It's not going to cost any more to acquire Ryan or Getzlaf than it will to acquire Nash.

I'm not saying you're certainly wrong about that but it should I think... In my mind, there ought to be a premium on equivalent guys with better cap numbers. Anyway, I still think this is the type of deal it'll take to land any of those three. 

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not saying you're certainly wrong about that but it should I think... In my mind, there ought to be a premium on equivalent guys with better cap numbers. Anyway, I still think this is the type of deal it'll take to land any of those three.

If both situations were equal, it probably would, but, as you know, they're not. Nash is the franchise in Columbus and Howson is fighting to hold on to his job. The price for Nash has been set at 4 high value assets. Neither Ryan or Getzlaf will cost more than that.

 

[ZBBM]

I agree.  Also, while bring in Nash will have great instantaneous appeal, the novelty will wear out extremely quickly.  Very, very soon -- by next season, for sure -- fans will begin to measure Nash against his contract and will sour on him the second that he does not measure up to his contract.  )

The novelty of having a top-rank forward will wear out quickly?

And really, do you think it will matter one bit to the average fan if Nash gets 7.8 or 5.5 or any other number in between so long as he produces at a high level?  I'm not saying the dollar differences aren't real factors -- very much so to the GM -- but to most fans?  I don't think so.

I think Nash would be ?berpopular here.  I certainly don't get all the imputations that the guy is on the verge of being washed up, or at least in decline.  He has put up excellent numbers on a crap team, you know.

 

[maplesyrup]

I'm not saying you're certainly wrong about that but it should I think... In my mind, there ought to be a premium on equivalent guys with better cap numbers. Anyway, I still think this is the type of deal it'll take to land any of those three.

If both situations were equal, it probably would, but, as you know, they're not. Nash is the franchise in Columbus and Howson is fighting to hold on to his job. The price for Nash has been set at 4 high value assets. Neither Ryan or Getzlaf will cost more than that.

Fair enough.

 

[cw]

I think it's both a winger and dman to that end prince, fwiw.

I'd go with a good center (Carter/Getzlaf), top 2 dman (ie Suter) and a starting goalie.

 

[Bender]

I think it's both a winger and dman to that end prince, fwiw.

I'd go with a good center (Carter/Getzlaf), top 2 dman (ie Suter) and a starting goalie.

So just pretty much everything

 

[maplesyrup]

I'd go with a good center (Carter/Getzlaf), top 2 dman (ie Suter) and a starting goalie.

Personally, I think this team lacks 3 major things;

1. Another big time forward (preferably a centre but it doesn't need to be if it's the right guy.)

2. Legitimate goaltending.

3. Seasoning. - We're so young. I think making a solid run for the playoffs and this group being a part of at least the first round would be so good for these guys.

Edit: and I suppose a little grit wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Tigger]

I think it's both a winger and dman to that end prince, fwiw.

I'd go with a good center (Carter/Getzlaf), top 2 dman (ie Suter) and a starting goalie.

Sure, that was mostly in direct reference to prince' question, not sure about actually acquiring the centre, or the goalie for that matter. I'm not a fan of Carters contract, fwiw but I wouldn't hate it.

I do like what TMLfan said yesterday about needing some more size and grit without giving up much speed/skill on the wings, part of the Leafs problem defensively is losing possession in the offensive zone along the boards and with puck battles among the forwards in general.

...could we have that and a top winger? Carter, Suter, Schneider, Ryan...not asking for much I know...

I wouldn't mind Burke selling a couple contracts while also trying to be a long term buyer, if there's a whisker of truth to being able to acquire Suter I'd sacrifice some d now, especially with the likelihood of one of the Marlies being ready soon.

An aside, something to keep in mind/food for thought, Holzer and Blacker are both natural right side dmen, though Jesse has shown some ability to play the left side too, both in junior and with the Marlies.

 

[Pucken Chronic]

So I look at tonights schedule and I see The Caps vs the Sens. My first insticnt is to hope the Caps DESTROY the Sens... and then a sledgehammer of reality hits me and says as a fan wanting the Leafs to make the play-offs I should be cheering for the Senat..... for Otta... for...... Sorry, I just can't bring myself to say it, so... I should be cheering against the Caps.

This is wrong!     

I feel sooooooo dirty, like I stepped in some Senator and it's caked in the tread of my soul. Man, that was deep. lol  At least tonight I can cleanse my soul and just feel better about myself as a human(ish) being.

Go Leafs Go!

 

[Zee]

Wow Leafs are now on pace for only 2 more points than last season.

 

[hockeyfan1]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/02/26/brophy_leafs_struggling_ahead_of_nhl_trade_deadline/

Poor goaltending and a lack of preparation are two theories as to why the Leafs are sinking in the East, but veteran defenceman John-Michael Liles said the players need to look in the mirror.

"It?s a matter of us, as players, taking responsibility," Liles said. "Coaches can lay it out for you and make sure you have the right game plan, but the bottom line is, No. 1, execution and, No. 2, playing the game the right way. When you get away from that for five minutes?10 minutes?20 minutes?for however long, this league is good enough and it?s deep enough into the season that it?s going to come back to bite you. That?s on us as players. It?s on us as leaders to be ready to play and obviously we haven?t been ready to play lately.


How many times have we heard this?  By now, the team should have already honed their preparatory skills.  Many teams are doing just that, so, why can't the Leafs?  I'm tired of these excuses.  Either the coaching staff can't motivate or the players don't understand the responsibility of what is required of them.