Goaltending conundrum v3.0-Reimer or Bernier?
- Thread starter Redleaf
- Start date
GhostofPotvin29
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bustaheims said:
Also if the Leafs need a goalie at any point, had to get him on an NHL deal to use him after the deadline, per Mirtle.
Boston Leaf
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How has he played with the Marlies?
bustaheims
Active member
Potvin29 said:
Well, yes, that too, but that's way too obvious a reason to make this move.
bustaheims
Active member
RedLeaf said:
Not at all. He has to be signed and have cleared waivers before the deadline to be eligible to play in the NHL this season. With the team now fairly firmly in a playoff position, they need to create some available depth in all areas.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
RedLeaf said:
Could be any number of reasons, and they don't really matter. Maybe there was something else going on that they waited for, maybe they wanted more evaluation time for McIntyre, who knows. Pretty inconsequential.
gilmourthegreat
New member
Potvin29 said:
The move probably gives Nonis some leverage in trade negotiations for a goalie; he now has three NHL-eligible goalies, so even if one is shipped out the door, he is immediately capable of filling out an NHL roster card. It probably also is a public sign of confidence in Macintyre which demonstrates to other teams that he won't be forced into trading too much for 3rd string goalie, since he already has one.
My guess is some other GM, maybe one on the west coast, was trying to charge an arm and a leg for a goalie, and he wanted to show that such tactics weren't going to work.
I really hope they don't get rid of Scrivens at the deadline. IMO he is the goalie with more natural ability in comparison to Reimer.
Yes Reimers numbers and win loss record are impressive but I really think his numbers are inflated as he is the beneficiary of solid team defence where he generally isn't relied upon to make many difficult saves. You watch him in shootouts and realize he isn't going to steal any points for you. Good shooters like Crosby make him look like a career minor leaguer.
Scrivens seems quicker and more agile and acrobatic. He moves laterally better and to me just looks like more of a goalie. One area where I would give the edge to Reimer is his ability to not overplay the shooter and stay in a good posistion, but I think Scrivens has improved in this area as well.
I really still see Reimer as a slight upgrade on Justin Pogge and Scrivens as more of a Tukka Rask.
Yes Reimers numbers and win loss record are impressive but I really think his numbers are inflated as he is the beneficiary of solid team defence where he generally isn't relied upon to make many difficult saves. You watch him in shootouts and realize he isn't going to steal any points for you. Good shooters like Crosby make him look like a career minor leaguer.
Scrivens seems quicker and more agile and acrobatic. He moves laterally better and to me just looks like more of a goalie. One area where I would give the edge to Reimer is his ability to not overplay the shooter and stay in a good posistion, but I think Scrivens has improved in this area as well.
I really still see Reimer as a slight upgrade on Justin Pogge and Scrivens as more of a Tukka Rask.
Champ Kind
New member
gunnar36 said:
With all due respect, I think you've been hanging out with Doug MacLean a bit too much.
While I'm not sure where to begin, if you take a look at Reimer's numbers this year, you'll see they bear an eery resemblance to the numbers he posted in 2011 on a vastly inferior - especially defensively - Maple Leaf team.
And, really, wouldn't Scrivens be benefitting from the same strong defence?
leafplasma
New member
Champ Kind said:
Yes Gunnar your comparisons there that Champ bolded are a little crazy but I do like that you are showing a little love for Scrivy. Basically Reimer and Scrivens have put up eerily similar numbers behind the same team. Each of them seem to have very adamant fans which is great. They are both getting the job done and I like many think it is absolutely ludicrous that they are rumoured to be looking at other options.
riff raff
New member
Some rambling thoughts on our goaltending:
I have to say, I don't particularly trust our goaltending. I know, I know, their stats are pretty good, but, I still feel nervous on every shot on goal.
Maybe it's because, since the lockout, we have been witness to goaltending that ranged from mediocre to bad to OMG!!
Maybe it's because the goals that do go in are generally not of the 'nobody-could-have-stopped-that' variety but more of the 'he-should-have-had-that' or 'how-in-the-world-did-that-go-in' type.
So, I'm a little nervous.
Still, having said that, I don't see any way in which Kiprosoff is an upgrade. Sure, if they only want him as a mentor or insurance, it might not hurt. But, what are they discussing with him? An extension? That doesn't fit the 'mentor'/'insurance' template. And I think we all have in the back of our minds the Giguere experiment where they played him even though they had better, younger goalies on the bench and in the press box. There's a good chance if they trade for him, they are going to play him - come Hell or high water.
I do think that Luongo would be an upgrade, maybe even a significant upgrade. But his contract is so stupid that it cancels out any benefit to getting him.
Now one more thing before I end this ramble, which may seem contradictory to what I have just written. The reason for this trade discussion is the need for 'playoff experience'. Leaving aside the 'how-do-you-get-experience-if-you-don't-have-experience' argument, could you not look at playoff experience in other leagues as a precursor to how things might play out, in terms of handling pressure etc.?
So for the record, Reimer led his ECHL team to the championship and won playoff MVP and Scrivens took the Marlies to the AHL finals. Yes, not the NHL, but playoff runs nonetheless, with their own playoff pressures.
So, despite my nervousness and mistrust, I still think the best option is to stand pat.
I have to say, I don't particularly trust our goaltending. I know, I know, their stats are pretty good, but, I still feel nervous on every shot on goal.
Maybe it's because, since the lockout, we have been witness to goaltending that ranged from mediocre to bad to OMG!!
Maybe it's because the goals that do go in are generally not of the 'nobody-could-have-stopped-that' variety but more of the 'he-should-have-had-that' or 'how-in-the-world-did-that-go-in' type.
So, I'm a little nervous.
Still, having said that, I don't see any way in which Kiprosoff is an upgrade. Sure, if they only want him as a mentor or insurance, it might not hurt. But, what are they discussing with him? An extension? That doesn't fit the 'mentor'/'insurance' template. And I think we all have in the back of our minds the Giguere experiment where they played him even though they had better, younger goalies on the bench and in the press box. There's a good chance if they trade for him, they are going to play him - come Hell or high water.
I do think that Luongo would be an upgrade, maybe even a significant upgrade. But his contract is so stupid that it cancels out any benefit to getting him.
Now one more thing before I end this ramble, which may seem contradictory to what I have just written. The reason for this trade discussion is the need for 'playoff experience'. Leaving aside the 'how-do-you-get-experience-if-you-don't-have-experience' argument, could you not look at playoff experience in other leagues as a precursor to how things might play out, in terms of handling pressure etc.?
So for the record, Reimer led his ECHL team to the championship and won playoff MVP and Scrivens took the Marlies to the AHL finals. Yes, not the NHL, but playoff runs nonetheless, with their own playoff pressures.
So, despite my nervousness and mistrust, I still think the best option is to stand pat.
Kin
New member
riff raff said:
I think the prospective trade for Kiprusoff needs to be looked at in a slightly different context. I think it's unmistakable that if a trade gets made they're moving away from the idea of Ben Scrivens as being part of their future. I don't think he'd clear waivers and I don't think they'd carry three goalies. So the idea of Scrivens factoring into the discussion post-Kiprusoff seems unlikely.
As to your general point I think that if the team does trade for Kiprusoff it's very much with the idea of him being, at best, the 1B to Reimer's 1A going forward. So the trade doesn't preclude, I don't think, Reimer getting playoff experience but rather it adds Kiprusoff, a vet with playoff experience, as a back-up.
Whether that's a good call remains to be seen but I really don't see Kiprusoff coming in and being handed the starting job regardless.
link - on goalie playoff experience
In 2006 Cam Ward had no prior playoff experience and had Martin Gerber and his two career playoff games as the starter in front of him before he took over and won a Stanley Cup.
Antti Niemi had no prior playoff experience and had Cristobal Huet and his 13 career playoff games as his backup and he managed to win a Stanley Cup without falling apart.
Jonathan Quick had 12 prior playoff games with .884 and .913 save percentages before posting a .946sv% on the way to the Cup. His backup? Jonathan Bernier and his total lack of prior playoff experience.
The then 24 year old Jaroslav Halak had three prior playoff games under his belt before the Habs' run in 2010 and was backed up by the then 22 year old Carey Price who boasted 15 prior playoff games with a save percentage under .900.
Braden Holtby had no prior playoff experience, was backed up by Michal Neuvirth (9 career playoff GP) and Tomas Vokoun, he of the 11 previous playoff games, was the injured mentor. Somehow he managed to outduel Tim Thomas.
In 2003 Jean-Sebastien Giguere had no prior playoff experience and was backed up by Martin Gerber who had no prior playoff experience. Somehow, he managed to get to game seven of the final and win the Conn Smythe despite that debilitating deficit of experience.
In 1993 Felix Potvin had no prior playoff experience and was backed up by Darren Puppa who had 11 games of playoff experience. Felix got the Leafs through two game seven wins and almost led the Leafs to the Stanley Cup Final.
I could add some:
Patrick Roy won 15 of 20 games, .923 save% (pre clutch and grab) in his first playoff run. And won a Cup & Conn Smythe
Martin Brodeur, .933 barely lost to the Rangers in '94 playoffs. Won a Cup in his second playoff run.
Ed Beflour took the Hawks to the Cup final in his second playoff run.
I think how meaningful playoff experience is in goaltending is debatable.
In 2006 Cam Ward had no prior playoff experience and had Martin Gerber and his two career playoff games as the starter in front of him before he took over and won a Stanley Cup.
Antti Niemi had no prior playoff experience and had Cristobal Huet and his 13 career playoff games as his backup and he managed to win a Stanley Cup without falling apart.
Jonathan Quick had 12 prior playoff games with .884 and .913 save percentages before posting a .946sv% on the way to the Cup. His backup? Jonathan Bernier and his total lack of prior playoff experience.
The then 24 year old Jaroslav Halak had three prior playoff games under his belt before the Habs' run in 2010 and was backed up by the then 22 year old Carey Price who boasted 15 prior playoff games with a save percentage under .900.
Braden Holtby had no prior playoff experience, was backed up by Michal Neuvirth (9 career playoff GP) and Tomas Vokoun, he of the 11 previous playoff games, was the injured mentor. Somehow he managed to outduel Tim Thomas.
In 2003 Jean-Sebastien Giguere had no prior playoff experience and was backed up by Martin Gerber who had no prior playoff experience. Somehow, he managed to get to game seven of the final and win the Conn Smythe despite that debilitating deficit of experience.
In 1993 Felix Potvin had no prior playoff experience and was backed up by Darren Puppa who had 11 games of playoff experience. Felix got the Leafs through two game seven wins and almost led the Leafs to the Stanley Cup Final.
I could add some:
Patrick Roy won 15 of 20 games, .923 save% (pre clutch and grab) in his first playoff run. And won a Cup & Conn Smythe
Martin Brodeur, .933 barely lost to the Rangers in '94 playoffs. Won a Cup in his second playoff run.
Ed Beflour took the Hawks to the Cup final in his second playoff run.
I think how meaningful playoff experience is in goaltending is debatable.
riff raff
New member
Nik said:
I'd have less of a problem with a trade for Kiprosoff if I honestly thought he would simply be a backup. I just have a bad feeling that they may try to force Kiprosoff into the starting role, especially given his salary compared to Reimer and the fact they traded for him.
Kin
New member
cw said:
I think, though, that a lot of that post assumes that the argument being made is that not only is playoff experience valuable but that it has a cumulative value. 12 or 10 or so playoff games can mean two seasons worth of it and I think most people would say that would suffice. In the examples provided it's really only the '03 Ducks who went into the playoffs with two goalies without any experience in the NHL playoffs.
edit: Also, for what it's worth, Belfour's run to the Cup final came in his 3rd playoffs.