Goaltending conundrum

[Bender]

What message does that send to the other 21 guys on the roster?

That they need to take a long look at themselves and realize that goaltending isn't the only reason why this team has been struggling.

Yeah, not sure what message the 21-24 skaters on the team deserve to receive.  Should Gus have been glaring up at the rafters in Burke's direction when half the 3rd period was Phaneuf falling over and giving New Jersey odd-man rushes?

If Gustavsson hadn't put them down in the first place, they might not have been taking as many crazy risks trying to tie the game.

Those rushes weren't off aggressive chances...it was just poor positional play along the boards, and last night was hardly the first game out of the last 10 where the Leafs have been incompetently giving up odd-man rushes.

I just went off the example you gave. Phaneuf was the last man back because Gunnarsson went in deep on an offensive chance, something he might not have done had the game been tied.

Regardless, sloppy D might make a good goalie look bad, but it doesn't excuse bad goaltending.

No, it doesn't excuse bad goaltending in the least.  But it also doesn't give the defense an excuse to say "we deserve better".

It does when goals like 3 of the 4 last night are going in.

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't mean the whole team doesn't need to get better, I just think you and I believe the cornerstone is the goaltender.

 

[TML fan]

For sure. Everyone knows the whole team needs to get better. That goes without saying. But at the end of the day, you can get by with sloppy D. You can't with bad goaltending. That should be the first priority to correct.

 

[Zee]

What message does that send to the other 21 guys on the roster?

That they need to take a long look at themselves and realize that goaltending isn't the only reason why this team has been struggling.

Yeah, not sure what message the 21-24 skaters on the team deserve to receive.  Should Gus have been glaring up at the rafters in Burke's direction when half the 3rd period was Phaneuf falling over and giving New Jersey odd-man rushes?  How about when everyone looked at Lombardi for being a major goat in the Vancouver game. and on and on and on.

Gus' night last night was pretty prototypical of the Leafs' season.  Play great for stretches.  Be fine for other stretches and then play absymally out of nowhere.

Even our best line has been an abomination in the defensive zone all year.  If they aren't skating with speed through the neutral zone and creating chances, they are being hemmed in the defensive zone and running around incapable of getting hold of the puck.

But goaltending is probably the one position on the ice that will likely have the greatest impact on the team, for better or for worse.  The CuJo/Belfour years saw great goaltending make the teams look better than they probably were, so much so that a couple different bounces here or there and they would have been in the Cup finals. 

It's obviously never solely the goalie's fault, but the position is also one that, rightly or wrongly, carries an inordinate amount of pressure on it for its singular ability to affect the outcome of the game.

Wanting much better goaltending does not mean I'm absolving the rest of the team of their role in it, it just means I think we need better goaltending for the team to become consistent.

Yes, look no further than the Leafs of last season.  From Oct-Dec the Leafs were brutal, bad defensive zone coverage yadda yadda, then Reimer comes in Jan, all is well because he plays amazing and consistently puts up .922 save % numbers.  Did the Leafs suddenly improve defensively from Jan on or did they suddenly have confidence in the goalie's ability to save a mistake?

Put it this way, if your team makes 10 glaring defensive errors in a game, and the goalie lets in 1 of those errors but bails you out 9 other times, people will forget the errors and praise the goalie for playing a great game.

If on those same 10 errors the goalie lets in 3, well not so good and suddenly people start saying the defensive zone coverage isn't good enough.

It all snowballs, when the goalie plays well the team relaxes and can play their game.  When you're not worried about making a mistake you tend to make fewer of them.  It all starts in net for better or worse and the finger is pointed squarely on BOTH Reimer and Gustavsson right now.  They need to be better.

Absolutely, and nowhere have I said that Reimer and Gus have been acceptable in net.  The Leafs will not make the playoffs if their goaltending doesn't improve.  I only take issue with the notion that the players in front of Gus have been let down by the goaltending any more than the goaltenders have been let down by the play in front of them.  Certainly at least to the point that the players are in a position to be pointing fingers and blaming the goaltending for their woes. 

Any team that is relying on their goaltending to stop 9 out of 10 screwups, isn't good enough up front to do anything.  The fact that the Leafs aren't getting saves on 9 of their 10 screwups a night means that the team isn't going to crawl anywhere beyond mediocre, but it hardly is a marker of a team being held back by their goaltending because a good team isn't relying on 10 defensive zone screwups a night.

It's a very big two-way street.  The team that played well last year down the stretch with Reimer did a much better job of keeping shots to the outside, limited bad turnovers and played a much better two-way game than the team that was playing earlier in the year...much in the same way that the team that came out flying in January was a much better team than we have seen in February.  Some of it is goaltending, but a good portion of the better play in January was the Leafs weren't committing so many bad turnovers and relying on their goaltender to bail them out every 30 seconds to keep them in a game. 

The Leafs forwards deserved better last night than they received from Gustavsson.  The goaltenders on many a night have deserved a better defensive effort too.

Regardless, the defensive zone coverage, the clearance of pucks and the goaltending need to be better if the Leafs have any aspirations to be in the postseason next year.

"Screwups" is all relative they can be either minor or major. I propose to you that every single goal scored in a game is a result of someone making a mistake. Either it's a player or it's the goalie. If teams played mistake free hockey games would be 0-0. It's the good teams and good goalies who make the fewest mistakes.

 

[lamajama]

For sure. Everyone knows the whole team needs to get better. That goes without saying. But at the end of the day, you can get by with sloppy D. You can't with bad goaltending. That should be the first priority to correct.

I think it was proved by the Leafs circa 2000 that you could get by with sloppy D. Not enough for the whole enchilada but a lot closer than what
we have now. That being said how do we view the current Defense corp?

 

[BC Buds Fan]

The current D is most definitely a work in progress, but is focused on offence and puck movement.  Youth and inexperience is the biggest hurdle right now.  Their stay-at-home D include Schenn, who I still believe will be a great shutdown man in this league, Keith Aulie, who is probably a year or two behind Schenn developmentally, and Mike Komisarek (who hits the panic button when he touches the puck).

As for Phaneuf - he is what he is, a leader off the ice and an offensive, aggressive top-pairing D man on it.  But he's admittedly slow, and every team's strategy is to dump it into his corner and chase.  Gunnarsson, Gardiner and Liles are mobile puck-moving D men, and pretty good ones at that.  Franson is growing on me (in a good way, not the 'call the doctor' kind of way), but still offensive as opposed to defensive.

 

[ZBBM]

Burke tonight:

"It's very hard to watch what happened last night and not wonder if we have enough," Burke said of his current tandem. "But before you shovel dirt on Jonas Gustavsson, in my opinion he has saved our season. The only reason we're in the hunt is because of him; the reason we are even talking about a playoff spot is because of Jonas Gustavsson."

 

[Tigger]

Yeah I heard that interview. And will look at help for "right now" too..

He had some INTERESTING things to say about Nash and Wilson too when you read between the lines. He said he "expects Ron to make the playoffs", the implication being he's fired if he doesnt.

When asked to confirm the Nash rumors  he pulled out the "I can't comment on that or it would be tampering"

This is going to be an interesting trade deadline I think.

What Burke actually said was to clarify that if he confirmed a trade offer, that would be tampering but he is allowed to say if there's no offer on the table without tampering, which he did confirm.

He also said they haven't been looking at trading for goalies before last night but they were going to check 'price tags' and yes, if it was to happen it would be for immediate help.

Other than that he said they weren't changing the blueprint, trades would be made with the long term in mind, if at all.

... oh and if the Leafs don't make the playoffs he said, with regards to Wilson, 'that's none of your business'...

Oh, and welcome back Mr. TMLfans...

 

[cw]

Here's a link to the interview:
http://watch.tsn.ca/featured/clip624576#clip624576

Sounds like Burke is looking for a goalie.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think the mistake Burke made in going all in with Reimer this year was not that his faith was misplaced, its that going with Gus as the backup was where he went wrong.  And it's not Gus' fault either... I think the difference between last year and this year for Reimer is not having Giguere around as the mentor and practically like a goalie coach on the bench.

You could see almost every game last year during stoppages where Reimer went to the bench, Jiggy would be saying something to him and you could see the coaching going on there. 

So ffwd to this year and you have two young'ish goalies trying to establish themselves and struggling, they don't have a veteran guy to turn to.  Its like in any part of life when you feel you don't have a safety net (in this case, a veteran to take the pressure off), your whole outlook changes.

Burke should have traded Gus and gone with a veteran backup capable of playing 40 games if needed.  In hindsight it looks like Jiggy would have been a great option to keep. 

 

[maplesyrup]

I think the mistake Burke made in going all in with Reimer this year was not that his faith was misplaced, its that going with Gus as the backup was where he went wrong.  And it's not Gus' fault either... I think the difference between last year and this year for Reimer is not having Giguere around as the mentor and practically like a goalie coach on the bench.

You could see almost every game last year during stoppages where Reimer went to the bench, Jiggy would be saying something to him and you could see the coaching going on there. 

So ffwd to this year and you have two young'ish goalies trying to establish themselves and struggling, they don't have a veteran guy to turn to.  Its like in any part of life when you feel you don't have a safety net (in this case, a veteran to take the pressure off), your whole outlook changes.

Burke should have traded Gus and gone with a veteran backup capable of playing 40 games if needed.  In hindsight it looks like Jiggy would have been a great option to keep.

I said we should retain Jiggy last summer.  Anyway, it's not the first time Burke has wiffed in assessing his own assets (see the Kessel trade.) Is it me, or is Burke (and co.) just really good at judging talent on OTHER teams (he's made some fantastic trades) but not quite as good at seeing what's under his own nose? 

 

[Zee]

I think the mistake Burke made in going all in with Reimer this year was not that his faith was misplaced, its that going with Gus as the backup was where he went wrong.  And it's not Gus' fault either... I think the difference between last year and this year for Reimer is not having Giguere around as the mentor and practically like a goalie coach on the bench.

You could see almost every game last year during stoppages where Reimer went to the bench, Jiggy would be saying something to him and you could see the coaching going on there. 

So ffwd to this year and you have two young'ish goalies trying to establish themselves and struggling, they don't have a veteran guy to turn to.  Its like in any part of life when you feel you don't have a safety net (in this case, a veteran to take the pressure off), your whole outlook changes.

Burke should have traded Gus and gone with a veteran backup capable of playing 40 games if needed.  In hindsight it looks like Jiggy would have been a great option to keep.

I said we should retain Jiggy last summer.  Anyway, it's not the first time Burke has wiffed in assessing his own assets (see the Kessel trade.) Is it me, or is Burke (and co.) just really good at judging talent on OTHER teams (he's made some fantastic trades) but not quite as good at seeing what's under his own nose?

By what measuring stick should we have kept Giguere here this past summer?  Hindsite is 20/20.  When Giguere was here he had recurring groin issues, had limited movement and was a shadow of the goaltender he once was.  It was a risk to be sure, but who knew he'd suddenly get healthy and find his form again? 

 

[Bates]

Colorado is the simple answer.

 

[maplesyrup]

By what measuring stick should we have kept Giguere here this past summer?  Hindsite is 20/20.  When Giguere was here he had recurring groin issues, had limited movement and was a shadow of the goaltender he once was.  It was a risk to be sure, but who knew he'd suddenly get healthy and find his form again?

Giguere would have been an affordable veteran presence who by all accounts was great with younger goalies and was good in the room. I'm not sure there was much to lose in signing him. 

 

[Zee]

By what measuring stick should we have kept Giguere here this past summer?  Hindsite is 20/20.  When Giguere was here he had recurring groin issues, had limited movement and was a shadow of the goaltender he once was.  It was a risk to be sure, but who knew he'd suddenly get healthy and find his form again?

Giguere would have been an affordable veteran presence who by all accounts was great with younger goalies and was good in the room. I'm not sure there was much to lose in signing him.

They can't carry 3 goalies so keeping Giguere meant getting rid of Gustavsson.  Like I said it's easy to say now that Giguere is playing well, I don't think a lot of fans were enamored with Giguere last winter when he was losing games and we switched to Reimer to start winning.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

I think the mistake Burke made in going all in with Reimer this year was not that his faith was misplaced, its that going with Gus as the backup was where he went wrong.  And it's not Gus' fault either... I think the difference between last year and this year for Reimer is not having Giguere around as the mentor and practically like a goalie coach on the bench.

You could see almost every game last year during stoppages where Reimer went to the bench, Jiggy would be saying something to him and you could see the coaching going on there. 

So ffwd to this year and you have two young'ish goalies trying to establish themselves and struggling, they don't have a veteran guy to turn to.  Its like in any part of life when you feel you don't have a safety net (in this case, a veteran to take the pressure off), your whole outlook changes.

Burke should have traded Gus and gone with a veteran backup capable of playing 40 games if needed.  In hindsight it looks like Jiggy would have been a great option to keep.

And Gustavsson hasn't been the same since Rickard Wallin was let go and could no longer hug him and sing Swedish lullabies to him.

Is Toronto the only team on Earth where a goalie needs a entourage to be decent?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think the mistake Burke made in going all in with Reimer this year was not that his faith was misplaced, its that going with Gus as the backup was where he went wrong.  And it's not Gus' fault either... I think the difference between last year and this year for Reimer is not having Giguere around as the mentor and practically like a goalie coach on the bench.

You could see almost every game last year during stoppages where Reimer went to the bench, Jiggy would be saying something to him and you could see the coaching going on there. 

So ffwd to this year and you have two young'ish goalies trying to establish themselves and struggling, they don't have a veteran guy to turn to.  Its like in any part of life when you feel you don't have a safety net (in this case, a veteran to take the pressure off), your whole outlook changes.

Burke should have traded Gus and gone with a veteran backup capable of playing 40 games if needed.  In hindsight it looks like Jiggy would have been a great option to keep.

And Gustavsson hasn't been the same since Rickard Wallin was let go and could no longer hug him and sing Swedish lullabies to him.

Is Toronto the only team on Earth where a goalie needs a entourage to be decent?

Gustavsson, as I've pointed out multiple times, just came off a stretch of 20 games with a sv% of .922, so not sure at what point he was ever much better than he was in that stretch.

 

[Zee]

Man, what a puff piece by Feschuk today on Reimer.  "James Reimer Leafs Nation Believes in You!"  I guess the Leafs cut off Feschuk from any real news after he went to Reimer's mom for medical info.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/article/1135399--feschuk-james-reimer-leafs-nation-believes-in-you

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Man, what a puff piece by Feschuk today on Reimer.  "James Reimer Leafs Nation Believes in You!"  I guess the Leafs cut off Feschuk from any real news after he went to Reimer's mom for medical info.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/article/1135399--feschuk-james-reimer-leafs-nation-believes-in-you

Ugh.

 

[lc9]

Gustavsson, as I've pointed out multiple times, just came off a stretch of 20 games with a sv% of .922, so not sure at what point he was ever much better than he was in that stretch.

And it was all undone in 62 minutes on Tuesday.  Look, it was nice that he had a good stretch.  However, during that stretch the goals that he let in were still weak.  He seems to have the ability to make the great saves, but he can't stop simple shots and his five hole is as vulnerable as Demi Moore. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Gustavsson, as I've pointed out multiple times, just came off a stretch of 20 games with a sv% of .922, so not sure at what point he was ever much better than he was in that stretch.

However, during that stretch the goals that he let in were still weak.

No, he let in some weak goals during that stretch.  Regardless, if he is capable of playing at that level, some weak goals will be manageable, as they were towards the end of last season when Reimer was playing great, but still allowing some weak goals.