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Goaltending conundrum

Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)
 
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)

Harding has played in more NHL games than Reimer has and the nice thing about him would be not having to burn any assets to acquire him.
 
Sarge said:
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)

Harding has played in more NHL games than Reimer has and the nice thing about him would be not having to burn any assets to acquire him.

I meant unproven as a starter.  He's got 117 career games under his belt and hasn't been the starter.  Bringing him in will add huge pressure onto his shoulders cause he knows all about the Leafs goalie problems.  You need a proven guy in there.

Like I said we don't want another situation like we just had with Reimer/Gustavsson both having issues all year.
 
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)

Harding has played in more NHL games than Reimer has and the nice thing about him would be not having to burn any assets to acquire him.

I meant unproven as a starter.  He's got 117 career games under his belt and hasn't been the starter.  Bringing him in will add huge pressure onto his shoulders cause he knows all about the Leafs goalie problems.  You need a proven guy in there.

Like I said we don't want another situation like we just had with Reimer/Gustavsson both having issues all year.

He is unproven as a starter
He's coming in as a UFA, which more often than not doesn't work out as expected
He's coming from a team which has had almost as little success as we have in Toronto
He's going from a moderate hockey mad city to an insane one where the pressure to win now is beyond over hyped.

Just too much stuff on that list for me to believe it would work.

Still can't see why we wouldn't go with the sure fire, loads of experience playoffs and otherwise, veteran guy, been there done that, high pressure and preferably has won it all before.
 
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)

Harding has played in more NHL games than Reimer has and the nice thing about him would be not having to burn any assets to acquire him.

I meant unproven as a starter.  He's got 117 career games under his belt and hasn't been the starter.  Bringing him in will add huge pressure onto his shoulders cause he knows all about the Leafs goalie problems.  You need a proven guy in there.

Like I said we don't want another situation like we just had with Reimer/Gustavsson both having issues all year.

I understand but with Harding, he's shown he can be a good goalie in this league for a longer stretch then say, Lindback (who I wouldn't mean dealing for too BTW.) Harding is a UFA, who we could probably be able to get him for ~2.5 mil give or take (maybe less) and on a 3 or 4 mil. deal. No assets would be required to get him and might put up similar numbers to Luongo without having to make the same commitment. It also means you don't have to close the door on Reimer's and Scrivens' chances to earn the starter's gig.   
 
Sarge said:
Zee said:
Sarge said:
Harding. Perfect 1B.

Unproven though, might be the same situation we just had this past season.  I like Harding, but really I think the Leafs should be looking for a 30+ vet who's been a starter before.  I guess it's a short list with Luongo and Kiprusoff on there.  Burke's year-end speech said something to that effect (getting a goalie for 3-4 years until Reimer is "ready" to be #1)

Harding has played in more NHL games than Reimer has and the nice thing about him would be not having to burn any assets to acquire him.

He's been hurt a lot, never been a starter. Also, Minnesota is pretty stingy on d.
 
I know I said I was torn on Luongo but the more I think about it, the more I'm not a fan of making a deal for him. - Partly because I'm not prepared to close the door on Reimer's career. I want an insurance policy on Reimer - I don't want to be married to someone for eternity.   
 
Sarge said:
I know I said I was torn on Luongo but the more I think about it, the more I'm not a fan of making a deal for him. - Partly because I'm not prepared to close the door on Reimer's career. I want an insurance policy on Reimer - I don't want to be married to someone for eternity. 

I don't think having Luongo would cap Reimer's career. Luongo would be the starter for a couple years then Reimer will take over.
 
cw said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
cw said:
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
I'm going to disagree with cw here.  I think the next CBA will give teams an out clause for these mega-year contracts and so the risk of Luongo becoming a complete albatross is not that high.

link
Media Question: "Are you going to ship a lot of big contracts to the minors through waivers?"

Burke: "You?re assuming you?ll still be able to do that, I?m not sure that?s the case. We?re going into a new CBA."


NHL teams that have not been sending big contracts to the AHL have a legit gripe as it being a way to circumvent the CBA. The above is just one example of it being acknowledged. I wouldn't bet on the practice surviving the new CBA. It might but I'd say the odds are against it because it's pretty tough to defend as not circumventing the CBA and a much smaller portion of NHL teams can afford and therefore, would continue to support the practice. Naturally, the NHLPA would favor continuing the clause but the NHL could counter to adjust the cap and giggle the rules in a more equitable way.

If it were not for that expectation, I'd be far more open to taking on Luongo because according to Capgeek, he doesn't have a no move clause - just a NTC. The Leafs could afford to eat the latter years of his deal if he didn't retire and couldn't maintain his level of play.

I expect we'll have a better indication before July 1 because I would anticipate a record number of buyouts this summer if the GMs collectively feel this is the way it's going to go.

But another point here is that GMs will have an important say on what's in the new CBA.  They obviously have the ear of their owners.  My feeling is that if the big market teams want to be able to continue burying contracts -- and if the little-market teams want to keep get shared revenue from the big markets  :) -- then a way will be found around it.

If you review the P&Ls of the teams, most are roughly break even or losing a few mil. A very small handful are actually making big money => (from 2009) the Leafs & Habs take home 60% of the profits - and the Leafs alone take home 43% of the league profits.

Some of that will be improved with the players taking less of the revenue in this go round - probably dropping from 56-57% to something closer to 50%.

But rather than the old revenue sharing formula of the highest revenue team kicking in $10 mil, 2nd $9 mil, 3rd $8 mil, etc (or whatever the actual amount is), I expect it will get more exponential - rather than straight line or tied to actual revenues. When the Leafs & Habs whine about it, the vast majority of the other 28 teams will tell them to get stuffed in a vote. The Leafs lost much of what they wanted in the current CBA for the same reason.

28 teams and the NHLPA can't help but gun more for a bigger piece of the Leafs big dough. If I'm one of the other 28 teams, why not? My team wouldn't exist purely to line MLSE's pockets - which for many clubs, it's the way that it currently is. And before someone rips my head off for saying so because the Leafs do contribute a bunch to the league, I'm just presenting it from the other guy's perspective with some regard to how the league is governed => each team gets one vote.

In my opinion, the OTPP knew the return on investment was going to take a hit with the new CBA and their valuation was likely to take a hit with the increasing (and ultimately inevitable) threat of a second Toronto team which fueled their desire to dump it. They're not stupid people when it comes to evaluating return on investment and when to get out.

I think the odds of the Leafs having to pay increased revenue sharing under the new CBA are very strong. They only get one vote. And with that, there will be some correction to burying contracts via waivers. Along with that, Burke will probably be granted his desire that teams don't have to trade 100% of the dollars in a contract - a portion could be carried like buyouts in a team cap calculation. And maybe to help sell that to larger market teams and the NHLPA, the overall cap goes up a point or two more (landing at 51-52%) or the cap floor doesn't go up quite as much. There are a bunch of tradeoffs available. But the bottom line will be the Leafs won't be as well off.

Because of that, Luongo's contract would make me nervous for cap reasons and MLSE themselves may find potentially eating his contract even less appealing if they're having to also kick in more to revenue sharing.

I don't think the changes to the current CBA will be nearly as large a step as they were the last time but I do think changes roughly like the above are darn near inevitable.

You may be right, but those are a lot of suppositions (as, of course, my argument is too).  I think it's equally likely that the Leafs and other big-market teams will be able to negotiate "perks" like burying contracts than they will get screwed by the majority of the team that aren't so well off.  It makes no sense for the league to try to bilk its most profitable franchise.

And as for the teachers' sell-off, the new buyers must still think it's going to be very, very profitable.  I really don't see the MLSE valuation going down for reasons intrinsic to the CBA.  (Extrinsic economic factors are another story, of course.)

All in all, I would be OK with BB getting Luongo provided it is for a very small price.  I don't think there's much question that we'd have a goaltender good enough to hlep get us into the playoffs, and maybe deep into them.
 
Bender said:
Sarge said:
I know I said I was torn on Luongo but the more I think about it, the more I'm not a fan of making a deal for him. - Partly because I'm not prepared to close the door on Reimer's career. I want an insurance policy on Reimer - I don't want to be married to someone for eternity. 

I don't think having Luongo would cap Reimer's career. Luongo would be the starter for a couple years then Reimer will take over.

... and then we'd have a 35 yr old backup with 8 years @ $5.3 mil/yr left on his deal - which would obviously be even harder to move then than it is now.

In the longer term view of contending for a Cup, Vokoun, Kipprusoff, Thomas, Harding, Biron, etc all look rosier to me as shorter term solutions - even though some of them may not be as good.

And this business of "we'll just waive him to the minors and eat the $5.3 mil/yr for the 5-8 yr balance of his contract", even for the Leafs and if the CBA doesn't address it, there are limits to that. MLSE isn't going to bury tens of millions mil in the minors. A reasonable Leafs GM is going to get a Jeff Finger down there annually but he can't plan on having a few guys at $3-5 mil a pop. The "budget" for that should be for the mistakes that happen to nearly every GM signing UFAs. With this Luongo deal, consensus seems to be that we'll just burn that margin for error so we can have a decent goalie for a few years.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
I think Luongo would be eaten alive by this place.  People joke about how it's ok since we don't make the playoffs but I think he'd manage his 'playoff performance' in the regular season once the media got on his case here and the contract would make it a disaster.

As far as dealing with Vancouver it's Schneider on the table or look elsewhere IMO.
 
pnjunction said:
I think Luongo would be eaten alive by this place.  People joke about how it's ok since we don't make the playoffs but I think he'd manage his 'playoff performance' in the regular season once the media got on his case here and the contract would make it a disaster.

I completely disagree with this. It's not like Luongo's living in annonymity down in Nashville or Florida; Vancouver is a pretty big hockey hotbed. Add to the fact the preconceived notion that his Canucks team should be at least making the Finals (if not winning it all) every year and it's safe to say the guy has been under an enormous amount of pressure and had every aspect of his playoff history analyzed and criticized to the Nth degree.

And you know what, in that town he is considered by many the reason the team hasn't won. In Toronto it would be quite different; he wouldn't necessarily be the scape goat if the team faltered. So I can forsee a scenario where Lunogo embraces the role of bringing the team up a notch, as opposed to not bringing it down.
 
cw said:
And this business of "we'll just waive him to the minors and eat the $5.3 mil/yr for the 5-8 yr balance of his contract", even for the Leafs and if the CBA doesn't address it, there are limits to that. MLSE isn't going to bury tens of millions mil in the minors. A reasonable Leafs GM is going to get a Jeff Finger down there annually but he can't plan on having a few guys at $3-5 mil a pop. The "budget" for that should be for the mistakes that happen to nearly every GM signing UFAs. With this Luongo deal, consensus seems to be that we'll just burn that margin for error so we can have a decent goalie for a few years.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I think the risk you'd be taking would have to be with the notion that you're hoping to get 6 good years out of him. There may be limits on burying money in the minors but if you think that's possible then the balance is the equivalent of two years of Jeff Finger.

If the CBA is going to treat burying a contract harshly then you'd very probably take a pass and look to a much shorter term solution.

I have no idea if it's realistic to expect Luongo to be a decent goalie at age 39, that'd be the crux of the guess/risk along with any new CBA rules.
 
Luongo would be smart to come to Toronto.  The Leafs haven't made the playoffs for 7 years now.  Now imagine him coming to Toronto and they actually get into the dance (playoffs), he would be considered a hero and everyone would be asking to have a statue of him put in front of the ACC.
 
cw said:
Bender said:
Sarge said:
I know I said I was torn on Luongo but the more I think about it, the more I'm not a fan of making a deal for him. - Partly because I'm not prepared to close the door on Reimer's career. I want an insurance policy on Reimer - I don't want to be married to someone for eternity. 

I don't think having Luongo would cap Reimer's career. Luongo would be the starter for a couple years then Reimer will take over.

... and then we'd have a 35 yr old backup with 8 years @ $5.3 mil/yr left on his deal - which would obviously be even harder to move then than it is now.

In the longer term view of contending for a Cup, Vokoun, Kipprusoff, Thomas, Harding, Biron, etc all look rosier to me as shorter term solutions - even though some of them may not be as good.

And this business of "we'll just waive him to the minors and eat the $5.3 mil/yr for the 5-8 yr balance of his contract", even for the Leafs and if the CBA doesn't address it, there are limits to that. MLSE isn't going to bury tens of millions mil in the minors. A reasonable Leafs GM is going to get a Jeff Finger down there annually but he can't plan on having a few guys at $3-5 mil a pop. The "budget" for that should be for the mistakes that happen to nearly every GM signing UFAs. With this Luongo deal, consensus seems to be that we'll just burn that margin for error so we can have a decent goalie for a few years.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Doesn't Luongo have an 'out' clause in 3 years and the team has one the year after that?
 
Okay I surrender, get Luongo at whatever cost. It will make the media happy for a few months anyway.

He is a decent goalie and an improvement for us so wtf.

Pack up your money
Pull up your tent, McGuinn
You ain't goin' nowhere


 
cw said:
And this business of "we'll just waive him to the minors and eat the $5.3 mil/yr for the 5-8 yr balance of his contract", even for the Leafs and if the CBA doesn't address it, there are limits to that. MLSE isn't going to bury tens of millions mil in the minors. A reasonable Leafs GM is going to get a Jeff Finger down there annually but he can't plan on having a few guys at $3-5 mil a pop. The "budget" for that should be for the mistakes that happen to nearly every GM signing UFAs. With this Luongo deal, consensus seems to be that we'll just burn that margin for error so we can have a decent goalie for a few years.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I think Luongo's actual salary is only $1MM per year for the last three years.  I've always thought there was a subtle wink/wink behind these deals.  Luongo himself can't really believe he'll play until he's 42.  The teams need to be sure - which is why these deals don't come with NMCs.

Sitting GMs will have a better idea than I do about the risks of a new CBA.  To me, just based on the current rules, obtaining Luongo would be a huge plus.  If you want to build from the net out, there are few better players.

Vokoun would be a better option because he would ca
Ost no assets and is in that same elite type category.  Kiprusoff is 3 years older and has a larger cap hit.  He would be my third choice.

Finally, all this talk of Luongo wilting under the pressure is crazy (this is not a response to you, cw).  He plays under a microscope in Vancouver.  He took them to game 7 of the Stanley Cup final last season.  If you think they lost because of him, you need to go back and re-watch.  They lost because they turtled.  He stopped 34 of 36 shots in the gold medal ga,e against the US and won.  He will likely be an elite goalie, maybe the best in the league, for years.  We would be very lucky to get him - so he'll probably go somewhere else, for a decent haul.
 
Hmmm..


On Tuesday, when Luongo first revealed he was willing to accept a trade, the goaltender revealed he had started to work with Allaire again. Speaking in a mostly empty Vancouver Canucks locker room after cameras and most reporters had left, Luongo mentioned that Allaire had bought a home in Florida, where Luongo lives in the offseason, and they were on the ice together last August.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/torontos-goaltending-connection-to-luongo/article2415082/
 
Potvin29 said:
Hmmm..


On Tuesday, when Luongo first revealed he was willing to accept a trade, the goaltender revealed he had started to work with Allaire again. Speaking in a mostly empty Vancouver Canucks locker room after cameras and most reporters had left, Luongo mentioned that Allaire had bought a home in Florida, where Luongo lives in the offseason, and they were on the ice together last August.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/torontos-goaltending-connection-to-luongo/article2415082/

Isn't it amazing that the hundreds of professional goalie coaches  ;D ::) :'( who call in to Sports Radio and post on web sites know that Allaire is useless as a goalie coach, but the professional goalies still respect him. 
 

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