Heat pump
- Thread starter Bill_Berg
- Start date
herman
Well-known member
I?ll preface by saying I am not an expert and haven?t done anything like this (I?m in a condo with central heating/cooling)
https://www.drhvac.ca/blog/heat-pump-vs-furnace/
This is a pretty easy to read breakdown of the cost-benefits. I think you?ll have to find out from an HVAC vendor what will work for your home parameters. Either way, it?s only part of the equation: are your windows/doors and other openings sealed well? Is your home suitable for any passive heating/cooling techniques?
https://www.drhvac.ca/blog/heat-pump-vs-furnace/
This is a pretty easy to read breakdown of the cost-benefits. I think you?ll have to find out from an HVAC vendor what will work for your home parameters. Either way, it?s only part of the equation: are your windows/doors and other openings sealed well? Is your home suitable for any passive heating/cooling techniques?
Bill_Berg
Active member
Yeah it seems heat pump is the way to go depending on the installation cost really, and that's where I feel like these installation companies can take advantage. Like the previous owner of this house rented the water heater and when I did the math, the rental (which I can't break out of without a significant penalty) will cost me 3 times more than if I bought the heater outright.
As far as the seals go, it's more the house is really old so there's crappy insulation. I installed three new windows in a bay window setting last summer and last winter the floor and wall around those windows were ice cold. It's not the seal, but that four rows of brick isn't the best insulation I guess.
As far as the seals go, it's more the house is really old so there's crappy insulation. I installed three new windows in a bay window setting last summer and last winter the floor and wall around those windows were ice cold. It's not the seal, but that four rows of brick isn't the best insulation I guess.
herman
Well-known member
I've been on a sustainable home design kick on YouTube to see what I might want to do if we end up moving.
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-grant/23441
Canada's Greener Homes Grant should help mitigate some of the upfront costs if you're going with the heat pump.
If your external walls aren't insulating, that would explain your gas bill
I think mitigating that first by sealing off other heat loss vectors might net you the best bang for your buck. Might not be worth insulating the brick wall in the long run given all the complications.
https://homeefficiencyguide.com/insulating-old-brick-house-walls/
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-grant/23441
Canada's Greener Homes Grant should help mitigate some of the upfront costs if you're going with the heat pump.
If your external walls aren't insulating, that would explain your gas bill
I think mitigating that first by sealing off other heat loss vectors might net you the best bang for your buck. Might not be worth insulating the brick wall in the long run given all the complications.https://homeefficiencyguide.com/insulating-old-brick-house-walls/
Bullfrog
Active member
Heat pumps can also use significantly more electricity and require separate runs of ductwork to provide fresh air. That said, given the age and draftiness of your house, fresh air is likely not an issue. With a furnace, that requires ducts to deliver heat, you already have a centralized distribution system should you add an HRV or ERV for ventilation. On the other hand, with a heat pump, you can add smaller ducts (5 inch round) for ventilation air whereas furnace ducts will generally be larger, particularly the branch ductwork.
With heat pumps, you still have to have a way of distributing the heat to the various rooms. So you have to account for that cost too (e.g. "heads").
Hydronic heating with a boiler and radiant baseboard system is another way to go. New high-efficiency boilers can do both heating and domestic water heating (allowing you to get rid of the hot water tank once the lease is up.)
Nowadays, most new equipment is efficient and will work fine. The key is ensuring they're properly sized. That means not only not too small, but also not too big.
An air-source heat pump is not as efficient as a ground-source heat pump. Ground-source is extremely unlikely to be feasible in an urban environment. As mentioned in the article, air-source heat pumps may require supplementary heat on very cold days. (electric baseboard heaters? fireplace? etc.)
With heat pumps, you still have to have a way of distributing the heat to the various rooms. So you have to account for that cost too (e.g. "heads").
Hydronic heating with a boiler and radiant baseboard system is another way to go. New high-efficiency boilers can do both heating and domestic water heating (allowing you to get rid of the hot water tank once the lease is up.)
Nowadays, most new equipment is efficient and will work fine. The key is ensuring they're properly sized. That means not only not too small, but also not too big.
An air-source heat pump is not as efficient as a ground-source heat pump. Ground-source is extremely unlikely to be feasible in an urban environment. As mentioned in the article, air-source heat pumps may require supplementary heat on very cold days. (electric baseboard heaters? fireplace? etc.)
the dream is to find a suitable home to buy and retrofit to near-passive if not certified passive house standards. Except I?m poor and picky lol
Bullfrog
Active member
I'm actually off of the Passive House train. While I applaud its goals, it's ultimately an arbitrary system like so many others. That's not saying it's bad -- I've designed several houses to Passive House standards -- it's just only one way to achieve sustainable goals.
I'm fully on board the Pretty Good House train now. https://www.prettygoodhouse.org/
You might be interested in BS and Beer; both a podcast and streamed on YouTube. It's pretty nerdy, but if you're into learning about energy-efficient design and technology, it's a good place. Several of them are the authors of Pretty Good House.
I'm fully on board the Pretty Good House train now. https://www.prettygoodhouse.org/
You might be interested in BS and Beer; both a podcast and streamed on YouTube. It's pretty nerdy, but if you're into learning about energy-efficient design and technology, it's a good place. Several of them are the authors of Pretty Good House.
Bullfrog
Active member
Bill_Berg_is_sad said:
Sounds great! Ultimately energy is energy. It's mostly an economic decision. Sustainably, they're both not great, depending on how your electricity is produced. Electric is an interesting choice if you have the opportunity to produce renewable energy in the future (solar panels on your roof), but really that energy could go to your regular plugs. Gas is relatively clean burning. The CO2 concerns are pretty minimal if you have a proper installation. The only thing I'd insist on with a gas furnace is a two-pipe system. Meaning, have a dedicated pipe to bring in combustion air to the furnace. It should be a marginal increase in cost (cost to drill an extra hole and some PVC pipe).
herman
Well-known member
Bullfrog said:
Not to threadjack, but totally to threadjack, do you have any experience with sustainability-focused prefabricated/modular homes in Ontario, Bullfrog?
Because I'm thinking it might be more long-term effective to do a fresh build (throw on the PV+backup system at the same time) on a good location, rather than trying to thread the needle on retrofitting an affordable home that has a close-enough layout.
Bill_Berg
Active member
I ended up renting a heat pump, so no grants for me. It was installed this week. We'll see how it affects my gas bill!
I did sign up for the greener home program, I think that's what it's called. Expecting at some point someone to check my house out for all the places I'm losing heat. There will be many!
I did sign up for the greener home program, I think that's what it's called. Expecting at some point someone to check my house out for all the places I'm losing heat. There will be many!
madkenstalin
Member
What is the price of energy over there?
I'm paying 57p per kw for elec (day rate) and about 16p per kw gas.
Paying ?200 a month but that is building credit.
Using about 8kw of elec per day.
Down to 6kw of gas now heating is off.
I'm paying 57p per kw for elec (day rate) and about 16p per kw gas.
Paying ?200 a month but that is building credit.
Using about 8kw of elec per day.
Down to 6kw of gas now heating is off.
LittleHockeyFan
Moderator
our house is electrically heated. For many years, we used a woodstove to do most of the heating. After getting new windows put in by Centennial, our hydro bill went down substantially. We had a heat pump installed with our central air two summers ago and our hydro bill went down even more.
Our neighbours, who have the same model house as we do, had gas installed, furnace & ductwork.....cost them 15K to have that done, and they now have a gas bill monthly AND still pay almost the same amount we do for hydro per month too. Heat pump paid for itself first year we had it.
Our neighbours, who have the same model house as we do, had gas installed, furnace & ductwork.....cost them 15K to have that done, and they now have a gas bill monthly AND still pay almost the same amount we do for hydro per month too. Heat pump paid for itself first year we had it.
Highlander
Active member
LittleHockeyFan said:
Heat pumps are the way to go even though the cut out at -10C for the heating. My backup heating system is like a mini toaster oven that eats electric. Still lucky as BC power is so much less than Ontario.
I now live on Indian land lease and my other utilities; water (unlimited), snowplow, garbage collection for $900 per year. Wow.
I feel you on those gas bills?they can get crazy! I installed a heat pump last winter, and it really helped reduce my costs. Just be sure to get the right size for your space; that made a big difference for me. It was a bit of an investment upfront, but I?m seeing savings now.
madkenstalin
Member
Are the heatpumps there gernerally ground or air sourced heat pumps? They only seem to work well here with modern homes as older homes are terribly draughty. I bet they are better built there to cope with colder winters.