Horachek's impact on the team

[cw]

That gets at what I mean though - if he plays well now, people will criticize him for (a) hurting their draft position if they win and (b) "only playing well when the pressure's off"

I still see fans make references to Boyd Deveraux's hat trick in 2009 that "cost" the Leafs Brayden Schenn.

As it  turns out, missing out on Brayden Schenn has cost us nothing.  Matter of fact, we may not have JvR today, if we had gotten the 2nd half of the Schenn brothers.

That's why cost is in quotation marks.

I've joked about the Devereaux thing. At the time, I was happy for the guy.

Over the years, I haven't been "the sky is falling type" during game day threads. I've had a fairly even keel. But this lack of effort has really upset me off to the point I'm starting to feel like a sky is falling poster.

Over the years, we may not have a championship since the 60s but I think guys like Sittler and Sundin for example, were players I felt pretty comfortable with kids looking up to. Win or lose, I could cheer for class acts like that - who didn't take many nights off no matter how bad it got.

Lost a fellow Leafs fan to cancer a few weeks ago. His final Leafs game was Phil's "dont-give-a-shit" brand of hockey. Life is short. We only get one shot. One ought to make every moment count.

After this season, there's zero chance I'll ever have as much respect for Phil Kessel no matter what he does. I hope they run him out of town.

 

[TML fan]

Horachek is 100% right.  Reading that makes my frustration rise too.

In fact, reading those two articles has really made me pissed.  I've had it with the defenders of Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, etc.  Horachek is right.  You are wrong.  Period.  End of argument.

God, the day can't come fast enough when they get rid of the lot of them.

I don't think anyone is saying those players are giving their best effort. In all honesty I'm not even sure what point the other side of the argument is trying to make. Nobody is advocating hanging on to any of these players, and if their trade value is hurt by the perceived lack of character of the group, then so be it. It's pretty clear to everyone that the team needs to move on.

I think other GMs are smart enough to look at the state of the Leafs and understand why the players did what they did. At the end of the day any team looking to add Dion Phaneuf or Phil Kessel are going to look at the players for what they are, not who they are. You know, people quit their jobs all the time for various reasons. I'd say the number 1 reason is that they are not happy. It's pretty tough to be happy playing for the Leafs. The fans hate you, the media hates you, the team sucks. There's not much pride to be had in that. The only thing keeping these guys coming to the rink every day are their contracts.

Yeah, I'm not happy they quit. I'm as frustrated as the next guy, and maybe it does say something about their character....but there's the objective side of me that realizes that they are also human beings and they're probably really unhappy with the way things have gone. I dont like it, but I understand it.

At the end of the day, I don't think anything that happened this season is going to follow any of these players around for the rest of their careers, except maybe in the minds of a few frustrated fans and petty media personalities.

 

[pmrules]

But, I think there is room for +/- as a valid stat, along with CORSI/Fenwick.  They are both factors, in varying degrees, in determining the overall quality of a player and of a team from both an offensive and a defensive perspective, as long as there is additional context.

The Kessel/Bozak/JVR Line is horrible defensively and is the worst defensive line on this team.  My eyes see that.  Their respective +/- confirms it for me.

The .463 2006-07 Bruins are my go to example for how meaningless +/- is.

Chara was the worst +/- defender on their team at -21 and Bergeron the worst +/- forward at -28.

These are regarded as two of the best defensive players in the league at their positions.

The only other minus years in Chara's career were with the .354 1999-2000 Islanders and the .317 2000-01 Islanders. Every other year, he was a + player.

Bergeron never had another minus season in his NHL career.

The common link between the 4 minus seasons these top defensive players have had?
They were all non-playoff teams.

Bergeron wasn't considered one of the best defensive players until much later.  He didn't get any significant votes for the Selke (if that is any indication "best defensive" forward) until 2010 - 3 years after the year you brought up.  That's when his reputation started to develop as a bona - fide 2 way / defensive forward.  He honed his defensive skill it seems over the years - which also coincidently ties into when the Bruins actually became a perennial contender.

Don't know much about Chara's play in 2006/7 but suspect it was much the same play from when the Sens chose Redden over him...I suspect he didn't become the Chara that we know today until much later.  It seemed like he worked on his defensive play over time and got better at it.

 

[cw]

At the end of the day, I don't think anything that happened this season is going to follow any of these players around for the rest of their careers, except maybe in the minds of a few frustrated fans and petty media personalities.

Pierre McGuire weighs in on that
http://www.tsn.ca/video/leafs-breakfast-leafs-lacking-accountability-1.235900

He thinks it will stick long term and I agree with him. He also thinks it will devalue them on the trade market and I agree with him.

Many haven't forgotten the stuff that surrounded Kessel's fall before the draft. And many haven't forgotten what happened with Kessel in Boston. They definitely won't forget this recent lack of effort about Kessel either because it's happening center stage in the biggest hockey market in the world.

Some may be delighted we've gone from 6th to 4th (or whatever) in draft position but we're going to pay for it in a significant drop in what we'll get back for these players. Kessel's quit on his team. Why should a GM give the Leafs a lot for that when they know the Leafs want to dump him. The Leafs are a weaker bargaining position.

The other thing that it's done is it's harder to assess the talent for next year because of the messed up way their playing. I'm struggling with that in these games.

One also has to wonder what it's done to the younger guys who are going to be left behind. Does something like this really help Morgan Rielly's development? Hopefully, it doesn't hurt it.

All of that is worth a few of draft positions? I don't think so.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

But, I think there is room for +/- as a valid stat, along with CORSI/Fenwick.  They are both factors, in varying degrees, in determining the overall quality of a player and of a team from both an offensive and a defensive perspective, as long as there is additional context.

The Kessel/Bozak/JVR Line is horrible defensively and is the worst defensive line on this team.  My eyes see that.  Their respective +/- confirms it for me.

The .463 2006-07 Bruins are my go to example for how meaningless +/- is.

Chara was the worst +/- defender on their team at -21 and Bergeron the worst +/- forward at -28.

These are regarded as two of the best defensive players in the league at their positions.

The only other minus years in Chara's career were with the .354 1999-2000 Islanders and the .317 2000-01 Islanders. Every other year, he was a + player.

Bergeron never had another minus season in his NHL career.

The common link between the 4 minus seasons these top defensive players have had?
They were all non-playoff teams.

Bergeron wasn't considered one of the best defensive players until much later.  He didn't get any significant votes for the Selke (if that is any indication "best defensive" forward) until 2010 - 3 years after the year you brought up.  That's when his reputation started to develop as a bona - fide 2 way / defensive forward.  He honed his defensive skill it seems over the years - which also coincidently ties into when the Bruins actually became a perennial contender.

Don't know much about Chara's play in 2006/7 but suspect it was much the same play from when the Sens chose Redden over him...I suspect he didn't become the Chara that we know today until much later.  It seemed like he worked on his defensive play over time and got better at it.

I find that to be the issue with an award like the Selke trophy - it's so subjective.  Defensive ability is so difficult to quantify in the NHL on an individual basis.  I mean, just going from that 06-07 Selke voting and going through the first 5-6 names - they're all from top finishing teams in the league or teams that did really well during the season.

Is it coincidence that when Boston started getting great goaltending and having team success that Bergeron (and Chara I suppose) started getting looked at for Selke/Norris consideration or is it because of them improving that Boston had such improved results?  Personally, I don't think outside of a goaltender perhaps that two players can have that much impact defensively on a team's fortunes.

Of course, it's almost impossible to really prove or disprove.

 

[Deebo]

Bergeron wasn't considered one of the best defensive players until much later.  He didn't get any significant votes for the Selke (if that is any indication "best defensive" forward) until 2010 - 3 years after the year you brought up.  That's when his reputation started to develop as a bona - fide 2 way / defensive forward.  He honed his defensive skill it seems over the years - which also coincidently ties into when the Bruins actually became a perennial contender.

Don't know much about Chara's play in 2006/7 but suspect it was much the same play from when the Sens chose Redden over him...I suspect he didn't become the Chara that we know today until much later.  It seemed like he worked on his defensive play over time and got better at it.

It was literally the only minus season of Bergeron's career, he had two full seasons before it which he was a + player, but that one year, it dropped to -28. He then had a combined +128 over the next 7 seasons, with no minus years.

In Chara's 4 seasons with Ottawa, he went +109 and Redden +101 over the same 4 seasons. He went -21 in his first year in Boston, then back to combined +161 over the next 7 seasons, with no minus years (+56 over the next 3 seasons, where Redden was +7 in those same 3 years).

I don't think these players just became terrible defensively for one season.

 

[TML fan]

Who says the Leafs want to dump him? You? The media? All they've done is made it known that he's available for trade. Given the Leafs current state is that at all surprising?

I don't think it will stick with him because at the end of the day it's about winning and Kessel can help a lot of teams win. Regardless of his personality Kessel can do things many in this league can't. If it came down to a Stanley Cup over some personality flaws I think most GMs will take the Cup.

You need to stop looking at this from your standpoint of expecting Kessel to single handedly lift a horrible team out of the dumpster and look at what Kessel can bring to an already good team, because that's the kind of team that's going to be looking to acquire him. Teams have paid a lot for players far worse than Kessel in the past. Nobody is going to look at what happened at the tail end of when he played for a brutal team and say "hmm....no thanks." Even if they did they're going to look long and hard at what he did before the last 40 games and take that into account as well.

 

[pmrules]

But, I think there is room for +/- as a valid stat, along with CORSI/Fenwick.  They are both factors, in varying degrees, in determining the overall quality of a player and of a team from both an offensive and a defensive perspective, as long as there is additional context.

The Kessel/Bozak/JVR Line is horrible defensively and is the worst defensive line on this team.  My eyes see that.  Their respective +/- confirms it for me.

The .463 2006-07 Bruins are my go to example for how meaningless +/- is.

Chara was the worst +/- defender on their team at -21 and Bergeron the worst +/- forward at -28.

These are regarded as two of the best defensive players in the league at their positions.

The only other minus years in Chara's career were with the .354 1999-2000 Islanders and the .317 2000-01 Islanders. Every other year, he was a + player.

Bergeron never had another minus season in his NHL career.

The common link between the 4 minus seasons these top defensive players have had?
They were all non-playoff teams.

Bergeron wasn't considered one of the best defensive players until much later.  He didn't get any significant votes for the Selke (if that is any indication "best defensive" forward) until 2010 - 3 years after the year you brought up.  That's when his reputation started to develop as a bona - fide 2 way / defensive forward.  He honed his defensive skill it seems over the years - which also coincidently ties into when the Bruins actually became a perennial contender.

Don't know much about Chara's play in 2006/7 but suspect it was much the same play from when the Sens chose Redden over him...I suspect he didn't become the Chara that we know today until much later.  It seemed like he worked on his defensive play over time and got better at it.

I find that to be the issue with an award like the Selke trophy - it's so subjective.  Defensive ability is so difficult to quantify in the NHL on an individual basis.  I mean, just going from that 06-07 Selke voting and going through the first 5-6 names - they're all from top finishing teams in the league or teams that did really well during the season.

Is it coincidence that when Boston started getting great goaltending and having team success that Bergeron (and Chara I suppose) started getting looked at for Selke/Norris consideration or is it because of them improving that Boston had such improved results?  Personally, I don't think outside of a goaltender perhaps that two players can have that much impact defensively on a team's fortunes.

Of course, it's almost impossible to really prove or disprove.

True, I agree - but it is good discussion though!

It's a chicken/egg question.  Did Bergeron and Chara improve their defensive game to the point of turning the franchise around so that they were both key members of a cup winner, or is it the other way around - the team got good and as a result, so did Bergeron/Chara?  As you say...hard to prove/disprove. 

I suspect you would get varying opinions as to what the answer is from folks who have watched every single Bruins game over the past decade or so.

 

[Andy007]

Are we really putting that much stock into the play of a team that has lost half of its core to either injury or the trade deadline and has been virtually eliminated from playoff contention for months? Is there no wonder that guys like Booth or Sill are trying really hard? They don't want to become jobless. There isn't much for the other guys to play for and, quite frankly, I think that hopelessness would be a problem with a huge percentage of NHLers in the same situation, and not a Kessel or JVR-centric problem. I mean what would happen if this team won 10 straight? Everybody would be outraged and ripping them to shreds. It's a no-win situation. The GM and management has pulled the plug on the season and the team has responded accordingly. To think that every damn player needs to be traded as a result is so freaking silly.

 

[Bullfrog]

I've joked about the Devereaux thing. At the time, I was happy for the guy.

Over the years, I haven't been "the sky is falling type" during game day threads. I've had a fairly even keel. But this lack of effort has really upset me off to the point I'm starting to feel like a sky is falling poster.

Over the years, we may not have a championship since the 60s but I think guys like Sittler and Sundin for example, were players I felt pretty comfortable with kids looking up to. Win or lose, I could cheer for class acts like that - who didn't take many nights off no matter how bad it got.

Lost a fellow Leafs fan to cancer a few weeks ago. His final Leafs game was Phil's "dont-give-a-shit" brand of hockey. Life is short. We only get one shot. One ought to make every moment count.

After this season, there's zero chance I'll ever have as much respect for Phil Kessel no matter what he does. I hope they run him out of town.

Sincerely sorry to hear of your loss. But I have no idea why you're bringing that up in a conversation about Kessel nor of pointing out that his last game was a poor one by Kessel.

 

[Al14]

Are we really putting that much stock into the play of a team that has lost half of its core to either injury or the trade deadline and has been virtually eliminated from playoff contention for months? Is there no wonder that guys like Booth or Sill are trying really hard? They don't want to become jobless. There isn't much for the other guys to play for and, quite frankly, I think that hopelessness would be a problem with a huge percentage of NHLers in the same situation, and not a Kessel or JVR-centric problem. I mean what would happen if this team won 10 straight? Everybody would be outraged and ripping them to shreds. It's a no-win situation. The GM and management has pulled the plug on the season and the team has responded accordingly. To think that every damn player needs to be traded as a result is so freaking silly.

The entire core HAS GOT TO GO, IMHO.  Too much history of failure as a group.  For whatever reasons, the chemistry is just not right with them!

I think Phaneuf, Kessel, Lupul, should be the initial 3 traded.  Followed closely by Reimer, Bozak, and Gardiner.  I might even be inclined to trade JvR and Bernier, if the return is top notch.

We need to get rid of this core, they have not worked out.  How many more wasted seasons do we have to endure to finally understand that they don't have what it takes to be competitive?

 

[brothert]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.  I think that there are alot of overpaid NHL players out there who have dropped their will to compete once the big cheques start rolling in.  I also think it will help free up cap space allow a bit more player turnover through trades. 

 

[cw]

I've joked about the Devereaux thing. At the time, I was happy for the guy.

Over the years, I haven't been "the sky is falling type" during game day threads. I've had a fairly even keel. But this lack of effort has really upset me off to the point I'm starting to feel like a sky is falling poster.

Over the years, we may not have a championship since the 60s but I think guys like Sittler and Sundin for example, were players I felt pretty comfortable with kids looking up to. Win or lose, I could cheer for class acts like that - who didn't take many nights off no matter how bad it got.

Lost a fellow Leafs fan to cancer a few weeks ago. His final Leafs game was Phil's "dont-give-a-shit" brand of hockey. Life is short. We only get one shot. One ought to make every moment count.

After this season, there's zero chance I'll ever have as much respect for Phil Kessel no matter what he does. I hope they run him out of town.

Sincerely sorry to hear of your loss. But I have no idea why you're bringing that up in a conversation about Kessel nor of pointing out that his last game was a poor one by Kessel.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up. Maybe stuff like this just doesn't matter anymore. There was a time when I think it did.

 

[Highlander]

sorry but you can't get rid of everyone unless you are into a 10 year rebuild.  We can argue endlessly about the ones to keep or the ones to go.

Personally I would like to keep Kessel, JVR, Rielly, Holland, Panik, Komorav, Kadri. Trade Lupul, Bozak, Phaneuf, Bernier, Polak.
I am on the fence with Gardner
Keep Reimer to work with the young and up and coming goalies.

 

[mr grieves]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.  I think that there are alot of overpaid NHL players out there who have dropped their will to compete once the big cheques start rolling in.  I also think it will help free up cap space allow a bit more player turnover through trades.

No more guaranteed contracts? Hm. Do you mean from year to year or game to game? There's definitely potential here. I like the idea of fee for service. Goal = x dollars, assist = y. Fans could have the option of tipping after fights, tossing down a gratuity with their headwear after hat tricks. Now, losses are the tricky part here. One would like to say the go home empty-pocketed, but that's a bit harsh. We've seen what an angry Phil Kessel can do to the media; imagine the danger we'd be putting tourists and bankers in if he were just let loose on Bay Street desperate for cab fare and beer money? Public safety dictates a more prudent course. Maybe the players could get a cut of the door and concessions proportional to their effort? As voted by the fans in the stands and at home? Hard, but fair. And it'll keep em in line.

 

[Rebel_1812]

At the end of the day, I don't think anything that happened this season is going to follow any of these players around for the rest of their careers, except maybe in the minds of a few frustrated fans and petty media personalities.

Pierre McGuire weighs in on that
http://www.tsn.ca/video/leafs-breakfast-leafs-lacking-accountability-1.235900

He thinks it will stick long term and I agree with him. He also thinks it will devalue them on the trade market and I agree with him.

Many haven't forgotten the stuff that surrounded Kessel's fall before the draft. And many haven't forgotten what happened with Kessel in Boston. They definitely won't forget this recent lack of effort about Kessel either because it's happening center stage in the biggest hockey market in the world.

Some may be delighted we've gone from 6th to 4th (or whatever) in draft position but we're going to pay for it in a significant drop in what we'll get back for these players. Kessel's quit on his team. Why should a GM give the Leafs a lot for that when they know the Leafs want to dump him. The Leafs are a weaker bargaining position.

The other thing that it's done is it's harder to assess the talent for next year because of the messed up way their playing. I'm struggling with that in these games.

One also has to wonder what it's done to the younger guys who are going to be left behind. Does something like this really help Morgan Rielly's development? Hopefully, it doesn't hurt it.

All of that is worth a few of draft positions? I don't think so.

he was suppose to go first overall that year at the start of the season.  He slide after the world juniors and at the draft itself.

 

[cw]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.  I think that there are alot of overpaid NHL players out there who have dropped their will to compete once the big cheques start rolling in.  I also think it will help free up cap space allow a bit more player turnover through trades.

No more guaranteed contracts? Hm. Do you mean from year to year or game to game? There's definitely potential here. I like the idea of fee for service. Goal = x dollars, assist = y. Fans could have the option of tipping after fights, tossing down a gratuity with their headwear after hat tricks. Now, losses are the tricky part here. One would like to say the go home empty-pocketed, but that's a bit harsh. We've seen what an angry Phil Kessel can do to the media; imagine the danger we'd be putting tourists and bankers in if he were just let loose on Bay Street desperate for cab fare and beer money? Public safety dictates a more prudent course. Maybe the players could get a cut of the door and concessions proportional to their effort? As voted by the fans in the stands and at home? Hard, but fair. And it'll keep em in line.

Payment via the +/- stat?  

 

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.  I think that there are alot of overpaid NHL players out there who have dropped their will to compete once the big cheques start rolling in.  I also think it will help free up cap space allow a bit more player turnover through trades.

No more guaranteed contracts? Hm. Do you mean from year to year or game to game? There's definitely potential here. I like the idea of fee for service. Goal = x dollars, assist = y. Fans could have the option of tipping after fights, tossing down a gratuity with their headwear after hat tricks. Now, losses are the tricky part here. One would like to say the go home empty-pocketed, but that's a bit harsh. We've seen what an angry Phil Kessel can do to the media; imagine the danger we'd be putting tourists and bankers in if he were just let loose on Bay Street desperate for cab fare and beer money? Public safety dictates a more prudent course. Maybe the players could get a cut of the door and concessions proportional to their effort? As voted by the fans in the stands and at home? Hard, but fair. And it'll keep em in line.

Payment via the +/- stat?  

 

"Sorry, Phil, by our calculations you owe us approximately 12 million dollars."

 

[moon111]

I would like to see one year contracts, salary cap, and no draft.

 

[Al14]

I would like to see one year contracts, salary cap, and no draft.

I'd like to see the end of guaranteed contracts!  A luxury tax instead of a salary cap and luxury tax (revenue sharing).  I'd also like to see players coming into the NHL able to have some form of limited control over which teams they prefer to sign with.  No clue on how to implement this.