Horachek's impact on the team

[brothert]

well if we are using phil as example. give him the 8 million a year contract for seven years but only 20% guarunteed. so thats 1.6milx7 to phil to disappear if you have buyers regret. and pay a 10% luxury tax to the league for revenue sharing purposes. if your happy with him then you keep him and pay him the 8mil. you can have rules like you have to keep the player for 2yrs min after a contract.

 

[cw]

Toronto Maple Leafs? dressing room ?pretty screwed up,? player reveals
a fringe Toronto Maple Leafs forward was shedding light on just how dysfunctional the dressing room had become in the last month.

?It?s pretty screwed up in here,? said the player, who requested that his name not be used.

When asked what he meant by his comment, the player laughed and then referenced Thursday night?s 4-1 loss to the San Jose Sharks. It was a game in which goaltender Jonathan Bernier compared the Leafs to a ?junior team? and head coach Peter Horachek criticized the top players for going through the motions.

But the ?screwed up? part was not that Kessel, Tyler Bozak, James van Riemsdyk and Joffrey Lupul had seemingly taken the night off. It was that the fringe players who actually did show up ? Sam Carrick, Richard Panik, Brandon Kozun and Zach Sill ? were not rewarded with more ice time for their efforts.

On Toronto?s only goal, Kozun had doggedly chased a San Jose defender around the defensive zone before plastering him with a turnover-inducing hit along the boards. Leo Komarov then grabbed the puck and set up Jake Gardiner for a point shot that only went in because Panik sacrificed his body in front of the net for a screen.

By the end of the game, Kozun had played the fourth-fewest minutes of any Toronto player. Carrick, who had five hits and was noticeable on every shift, was second-lowest. Panik, who has as many goals as Kessel in the last two months, was on the power play for only 13 seconds.

?You?d think things would change,? said the player. ?No one notices what?s going on here.?

http://www.tsn.ca/report-unnamed-leaf-sounds-off-on-locker-room-1.236382
"We were probably a junior team [playing] against an NHL team tonight," Bernier told the media after the loss. "I don't know how many times we're going to talk about having a good start and just don't do it."
...
"It felt like we were in our zone pretty much the whole game."

The Star Horachek questions his players? compete level

every job has obstacles, and it?s no different here,? Phaneuf said.

?But that doesn?t mean you don?t come to work and try to be professional. What?s done (this season) is done, we?ve got 10 games left, you play for guys in the dressing room, you play for your coaching staff. There are no excuses, and there shouldn?t be any questions about motivation.?

Phaneuf said he believes Horachek wasn?t ?throwing his team under the bus? when the coach made the comparison of a professional team vs. a non-professional team in the Leafs-Sharks game Thursday.

?I think the effort consistency level is what he?s talking about,? Phaneuf said.

The Captain, starting goalie, a fringe player and coach, and many in the media, all saying similar things concerning effort while Kessel denies them.

I did look at the ice times and the fringe player is partly correct: they might take away five minutes of Kessel's line's time some nights but that's the extent of it - rather limited.

One that struck me was Booth. The guy has been trying - fighting for his career ... scoring goals, causing changes ... and they won't give him much PP time (he got a couple of minutes or so in March). They have raised his ice time to 14-17 mins/game so the fringe player's complaint isn't entirely accurate either.

 

[L K]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you bitch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

 

[Hampreacher]

I agree that the top line needs time reduced. How can a team go from one of the top scoring teams in the league to only scoring one or two per game? Why doesn't Horachek give each line equal minutes over the next two or three games. Each line takes a regular shift even when PK or powerplay situations arise and then the rest of the season give minutes to most effective and hardest working lines. But every line gets at least of 10 minutes per game. We are not trying to make the playoffs but determine players with heart, pride and ability and willingness to play.

 

[Tigger]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you witch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

I agree to a point but still, they're running with almost half an ahl squad right now, gotta give someone the minutes. The one thing that is obviously different is that the top line is no longer allowed to cheat on defense, some leash they were given under Carlyle.

Horachuk, the Leafs, decided to follow a different path from the way they were playing, about 40% of the time anyway, and the results speak for themselves.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The one thing that is obviously different is that the top line is no longer allowed to cheat on defense, some leash they were given under Carlyle.

This was true for maybe the first 10-15 games under Horachek, since then it's been the usual three forwards over center ice as soon as a Leafs Dman gains control, especially the 1st line when it was still the usual suspects.

 

[Tigger]

The one thing that is obviously different is that the top line is no longer allowed to cheat on defense, some leash they were given under Carlyle.

This was true for maybe the first 10-15 games under Horachek, since then it's been the usual three forwards over center ice as soon as a Leafs Dman gains control, especially the 1st line when it was still the usual suspects.

Not near what it was, especially the first line.

 

[TML fan]

I'm guessing that fringe player won't be a fringe player next year. He'll be lucky if he's playing at all in North America.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you witch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

They basically shouldn't be allowed on the powerplay at this point. I would seriously take them off of it for the rest of the season unless their play significantly improved. I mean, what else does Horachek have to lose? There's virtually no way he's coming back season, a move like that would at least show other teams/GMs that he's got guts.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

The one thing that is obviously different is that the top line is no longer allowed to cheat on defense, some leash they were given under Carlyle.

This was true for maybe the first 10-15 games under Horachek, since then it's been the usual three forwards over center ice as soon as a Leafs Dman gains control, especially the 1st line when it was still the usual suspects.

Not near what it was, especially the first line.

Maybe not as bad as under Carlyle, but they're almost as bad. They turned over a new leafs for 10 to 15 games and have now slipped back to the same bad habits.

 

[Chris]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you witch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

They basically shouldn't be allowed on the powerplay at this point. I would seriously take them off of it for the rest of the season unless their play significantly improved. I mean, what else does Horachek have to lose? There's virtually no way he's coming back season, a move like that would at least show other teams/GMs that he's got guts.

I'd like to see Panik get more of a shot on the power play, he's shown some nice offensive moves at times. Holland too, if he comes back from his leg injury. And Booth has worked hard throughout this downward spiral, he should get a shot.

 

[Kin]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you witch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

Yeah, it's pretty tough for me to reconcile the idea that this team hasn't by and large quit on the coaching staff with the idea that the coaching staff is a good one. Part of being a head coach is being responsible for the motivation and management of the players. What has Horacheck done to shake things up? How has he challenged this team to respond?

I don't know, maybe this was the one thing Carlyle had a hand on. Either way, Horacheck shouldn't skate on this. I'd be shocked if he ever got another head coaching gig in the NHL.

 

[Kin]

It's a chicken/egg question.  Did Bergeron and Chara improve their defensive game to the point of turning the franchise around so that they were both key members of a cup winner, or is it the other way around - the team got good and as a result, so did Bergeron/Chara?  As you say...hard to prove/disprove. 

Not so much. The easy way to look at that is to examine the +/-'s of players who were already widely acknowledged to be very good defensive players whether by acclimation or Selke voting or what have you and you still are left with nothing that really resembles a meaningful pattern.

Jere Lehtinen, on a very good 2002-2003 Stars team that got great goaltending, was a +39 to lead his team and won his third Selke trophy. The next year he was an even 0, despite other forwards on the team being as high as +21.

In 2003-2004 Kris Draper and Kirk Maltby were two of the best defensive forwards in the league and had the highest +/- on a good Red Wings team. In 05-06, their first season back, Draper and Maltby had the lowest +/-'s of all of the Red Wings regular forwards, despite multiple players being at +29.

So if you believe that defense is a relatively static thing for a hockey player, that Lehtinen and Draper didn't just forget how to play defensive hockey in the years after their Selkes, then there's really no way to reconcile a belief in the meaningfulness of +/-. Those swings can't be attributed to their teams or teammates, they're not a reflection in wild swings in their offensive production and if you're taking Selke voting seriously, those differences can't even be attributed to a swing in their defensive play either. Both Draper and Lehtinen were in the top 10 in Selke voting despite their much, much lower +/-'s.

The thing about thinking +/- isn't meaningful is I don't have to twist logic into preztels to explain things. I don't have to explain why Shea Weber had a lower +/- than Ryan Ellis last year or why, despite being on teams with relatively similar goal differentials and a significantly better offensive season at 5 on 5, Weber's +/- is lower than Andrei Markov's this year.

Shea Weber is pretty widely acknowledged as one of the best defensive players in the league if not the best, so he should be the guy where his +/- numbers are the most impressive in a league-wide or even just his own team-wide context and I don't think you can honestly look at his numbers the last few years and see any evidence of it.

 

[Kin]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.

I think the League really doesn't need to cancel another whole season.

 

[L K]

I think the League as part of their next lockout needs to table a change to get rid of guaranteed contracts.

I think the League really doesn't need to cancel another whole season.

You know what?  I'm perfectly ok with owners floating the idea of non-guaranteed contracts.  But then they should be ready to accept abolishment of the entry-draft.  Abolishment of age restrictions.  And all non-guaranteed contracts should also come with player induced nullification too.  Given that they would never go for that, the owners should never be able to argue for non-guaranteed contracts.

The argument seems to get made from time to time that in other jobs poor performance leads to getting fired.  However it kind of ignores the fact that you can also give two weeks notice and then go sign with your companies direct competitor.  If a player decides not to play for their team anymore, they go sit at home until the contract is over and in some cases arbitration ruling forces them to still honour those years of the contract if they want to come back.

It's all a two-way street. 

 

[Kin]

It's all a two-way street.

Well, look, if the NHL had even once gone into a CBA meeting thinking "How do we make sure our smartest teams have a leg up?" as opposed to "How do make sure our dumbest teams don't lose too much money" there are all manner of things they could have done to give teams more flexibility and wind up less likely to be tied to bad long term deals.

The NHL is the only league that doesn't allow for option years or partially guaranteed deals or performance incentives. All of those things that would allow bright GM's to insulate themselves from the risk of big deals are gone and all they get to offer is dollar and term and, shockingly, they make some bad decisions there.

I mean, for all the talk of how bad the Clarkson contract was look at the deal they traded it for. Horton was a player who couldn't get insured and Columbus still thought it was a good idea to offer him a ton of money over seven years. How is this a worse league if Columbus could have made the last three of those years team options? Or if the Leafs could offer Kadri a deal with a ton of incentives?

There are ways to address the issue without going after guaranteed deals and that wouldn't result in another labour war. I'd hope that the NHL at some point takes some of the idiot-proofing off the league but who knows ?

 

[ZBBM]

You know, honestly, I'm really getting tired of listening to Horachek talk about accountability and professionalism when the only guy who has faced the brunt of anything is Kadri.  I guess Lupul got sat for half a period once too. 

When you witch and complain about a lack of effort and a lack of pride but continue to run Bozak-Kessel out as your top line every night with no changes for 30 straight games, maybe you need to start looking in the mirror.  Preaching one message and practicing another is a fantastic way to have people ignore your message.

Yeah, it's pretty tough for me to reconcile the idea that this team hasn't by and large quit on the coaching staff with the idea that the coaching staff is a good one. Part of being a head coach is being responsible for the motivation and management of the players. What has Horacheck done to shake things up? How has he challenged this team to respond?

I don't know, maybe this was the one thing Carlyle had a hand on. Either way, Horacheck shouldn't skate on this. I'd be shocked if he ever got another head coaching gig in the NHL.

Horachek does bear some responsibility for sure.  His icetime allocations have been just as baffling as Carlyles on many nights.

Still, the reality is that coaches don't really drive the bus. The superstars do. Every coach knows this. Sure, Horachek could show the world he's an independent and courageous guy by benching Kessel but I don't think that is going to increase his chances of getting another shot at being head coach.

 

[L K]

It's all a two-way street.

Well, look, if the NHL had even once gone into a CBA meeting thinking "How do we make sure our smartest teams have a leg up?" as opposed to "How do make sure our dumbest teams don't lose too much money" there are all manner of things they could have done to give teams more flexibility and wind up less likely to be tied to bad long term deals.

The NHL is the only league that doesn't allow for option years or partially guaranteed deals or performance incentives. All of those things that would allow bright GM's to insulate themselves from the risk of big deals are gone and all they get to offer is dollar and term and, shockingly, they make some bad decisions there.

I mean, for all the talk of how bad the Clarkson contract was look at the deal they traded it for. Horton was a player who couldn't get insured and Columbus still thought it was a good idea to offer him a ton of money over seven years. How is this a worse league if Columbus could have made the last three of those years team options? Or if the Leafs could offer Kadri a deal with a ton of incentives?

There are ways to address the issue without going after guaranteed deals and that wouldn't result in another labour war. I'd hope that the NHL at some point takes some of the idiot-proofing off the league but who knows ?

Oh, absolutely.  I'm a big fan of option years (player or team).  I think you can even make the argument for having option years count as initial cap savings with cap recapture penalties if option years are declined.  It would provide team incentive to have those option years but not so much so to cheat the cap.

 

[Kin]

Still, the reality is that coaches don't really drive the bus. The superstars do. Every coach knows this.

I've read a lot of books by successful coaches over the years and to a one they've all talked about how figuring out how to motivate players was a big part of what made them successful.

 

[Deebo]

I mean, for all the talk of how bad the Clarkson contract was look at the deal they traded it for. Horton was a player who couldn't get insured and Columbus still thought it was a good idea to offer him a ton of money over seven years.

From what I read, they couldn't get year one of the contract insured because they knew he was going to miss at least 30 games that season due to a shoulder injury and by the time they could try and insure the balance of the term, he had contracted this degenerative back condition so they ended up on the hook for the whole deal.