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Idiocracy

bustaheims said:
Nik the Trik said:
I think it depends on what you mean by "these policies". Trump's administration has a lot of policies I disagree with and I don't necessarily equate all of them. For instance, I think his trade policy is bad and ultimately self-defeating but not ultimately immoral. I do think, however, that his immigration detention policies are ultimately immoral and, yes, I do think there's moral culpability in the people enforcing them. Are they "as guilty" as the people coming up with the policies? Probably not. Do they bear some burden of guilt? I think so.
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Just to add to this, if we learned anything from the Nuremberg trials, it's that "just following orders" does not remove your culpability. People working for border patrol, ICE, etc., have a moral - and, to an extent, a legal - obligation to not follow orders that are immoral and/or illegal (domestically or internationally).
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I was just thinking the same thing. I was just following orders is a pretty bad defense, especially when it's a perpetual downward slope.
 
Bender said:
bustaheims said:
Nik the Trik said:
I think it depends on what you mean by "these policies". Trump's administration has a lot of policies I disagree with and I don't necessarily equate all of them. For instance, I think his trade policy is bad and ultimately self-defeating but not ultimately immoral. I do think, however, that his immigration detention policies are ultimately immoral and, yes, I do think there's moral culpability in the people enforcing them. Are they "as guilty" as the people coming up with the policies? Probably not. Do they bear some burden of guilt? I think so.
Click to expand...

Just to add to this, if we learned anything from the Nuremberg trials, it's that "just following orders" does not remove your culpability. People working for border patrol, ICE, etc., have a moral - and, to an extent, a legal - obligation to not follow orders that are immoral and/or illegal (domestically or internationally).
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I was just thinking the same thing. I was just following orders is a pretty bad defense, especially when it's a perpetual downward slope.
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Do you think that downward slope though is part of the cause of the problem?  You inch forward down the slope a little bit.  You may not totally agree with what you are doing, but it was an order, and it's your job so you do it.  Then you inch again, and again, and again.  Then before you know it, you realize that you are doing these heinous things and you don't know how you get out of it.  In the current climate you quit, you don't have a job.  In years past, the penalty was probably worse.

I mean I really don't  know, as this isn't my job.  I knew a guy that worked for the deportation team.  There was a certain resolute way that he talked about his job.  Because yeah on a couple of occasions he had to go in to a persons house, grab a person, fly on a plane with them to a different country and hand that person over to officials in that country.  That was what he had to do.  He didn't talk about it with any sort of joy in his voice.  It wasn't like he was overly proud of it.  It was just what he had to do.  He didn't like that he had to split a family up.  So he's already at that point where he doesn't really totally agree with what he is doing, but he has rationalized it to a certain point.  So if the next point is, hey your job is to take that kid and put them in a cage, how does he draw the line when he has already done these other sorts of things that he doesn't totally agree with?

If the downward slope if part of the problem, that has to be corrected higher up.  The policies have to be put in place so that people are treated fairly, but that the best interest of a country are also protected.  That's not an easy thing to do.  I would say though, that just because it is not easy, doesn't mean you don't try to come up with a better solution that what has happened.   
 
Didn't anyone ever give him a history lesson?...

[tweet]1017194934338834432[/tweet]


German Chancellor Angela Merkel's response:
"I myself lived through a part of Germany being controlled by the Soviet Union. And I am very happy that today we are united in freedom," Merkel said.
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U.S. Chief of Staff Kelly reacts to Trump's comments:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a22114664/donald-trump-germany-controlled-by-russia/

Putin would like nothing better:
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a22102903/donald-trump-leave-nato-vladimir-putin/
 
Canada and some European allies align with Trump on concerns over the Russia/Germany oil & gas pipeline deal:

Trump, however, is not alone is in questioning the deal. Other European allies, including Canada, are worried.

Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said Wednesday there are significant Western sanctions against Russia for a reason.

"Canada believes in those sanctions. Those sanctions will and need to stay in place as long as Russia's illegal actions remain in force. When it comes to Nord Stream, Canada has significant concerns about that project.
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https://m.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/11/trudeau-trump-nato-germany_a_23479989/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-nato-1.4743670
 
I honestly didn't think that was strong language at all. Seemed more of a factual, historical account of what he's done.
 
Your intelligence agency indicts a dozen Russian for election tampering and hacking and Trump's response is to call them liars and tell everyone how big and strong Putin is.  How broken is the US political system that there isn't a revolt over this?
 
L K said:
Your intelligence agency indicts a dozen Russian for election tampering and hacking and Trump's response is to call them liars and tell everyone how big and strong Putin is.  How broken is the US political system that there isn't a revolt over this?
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I don't think it's very likely in a mass-democratic political system, broken or not, that there'd be much of a popular revolt over dismissing the state intelligence services and special prosecutor or saying nice things about (a brutal, autocratic) foreign leader. Watergate didn't inspire any giant street protests either.

If, by "revolt," you mean an uprising of the government in power, his own party... well, he's dismantling the ACA, gutting regulations that inhibit GOP donors' worst business, environmental, and labor practices, signed a law to transfer wealth to those same donors, and appointed Supreme Court justices that'll insulate them from any democratic repercussions. So, on balance, he's still serving their interests pretty well.

What's to revolt against?
 
https://twitter.com/CahnEmily/status/1019193968062554112

This story would have made for an awesome TV show if it wasn't our real lives.
 
https://twitter.com/jysexton/status/1019209185932840960
https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1020114567320416257

Black Widow clich?
 
I cannot believe he is the leader of my country. The lies and stories and con jobs continue and will continue.. I mean that bogus would vs wouldn't excuse that his team came up with is so phony.... My fear is he not only not going to be indited or impeached but he will yet win again and we are stuck another four years. He is so corrupt somehow it is going to happen
 
https://twitter.com/SamuraiKnitter/status/1018570246037352449
https://twitter.com/SamuraiKnitter/status/1018299440782888960

phoebe-waller-bridge-fleabag-smile-maybe.gif


I don't normally care what the Queen does, but I must admit that this is very, very well done.

 
Boy, Trump and the NRA are going to have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to figure out how they can logically support gun ownership rights without background checks and yet also be strongly opposed to 3D-printed guns that happen to cut the gun manufacturers out of the sales loop.
 
Heroic Shrimp said:
Boy, Trump and the NRA are going to have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to figure out how they can logically support gun ownership rights without background checks and yet also be strongly opposed to 3D-printed guns that happen to cut the gun manufacturers out of the sales loop.
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The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a certified and purchased-through-an-authorized-reseller gun.
 
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