Internal Competition

[Kin]

One thing he does do is correct immediately so that's something.

I'm not so sure that's true. I mean, last year as an example, it took until January for significant changes to come to a floundering team. I wouldn't say that's immediate. I know some of the changes he'd have liked to have made were probably impossible earlier but I think the most positive changes came internally.

I mean, how many games did Komisarek get? Or Lebda? The Leafs last year stuck with a lot of guys who struggled for a long time.

He's also pretty clever with how he uses the financial might of the Leafs ( landing Rick Dudley for example )

When I say the "issues" of Burke's tenure I just mean the negative issues. The things he's done poorly doesn't detract from the things he's done well.

That said, we have yet to see what the effect of hiring all the front office staff is.

I honestly wonder if, back when he made the Kessel deal, he was really banking on landing the Sedins.

Maybe. That sounds like the sort of full speed ahead thing he'd do.

 

[Tigger]

I don't think, realistically, it can be argued that Sjostrom was pretty ineffective last year. Injuries aside, I think just about everyone was comfortable with him not coming back.

Typo?

I won't miss him much though his compete level was fine. He worked hard on the pk but sadly that's just not enough and it looks like the NHL pretty much agreed.

 

[Kin]

I won't miss him much though his compete level was fine. He worked hard on the pk but sadly that's just not enough and it looks like the NHL pretty much agreed.

Yeah, typo.

And I agree. Compete level was A-ok. Good at playing hockey level was not so much.

 

[Tigger]

One thing he does do is correct immediately so that's something.

I'm not so sure that's true. I mean, last year as an example, it took until January for significant changes to come to a floundering team. I wouldn't say that's immediate. I know some of the changes he'd have liked to have made were probably impossible earlier but I think the most positive changes came internally.

I mean, how many games did Komisarek get? Or Lebda? The Leafs last year stuck with a lot of guys who struggled for a long time.

Well 'immediate' as possible then.

Sticking with Komi is/was pretty much a given, the team was winning and you couldn't demote him or trade him at the time with that contract and recent playing/injury history. I guess you could have sat him but that doesn't solve a lot ( I don't think Lashoff would have provided much of a gain, not sure if there was really an internal option there )  Lebda I just don't get at all but Burke did manage to use him in place of a bucket of pucks one year in when it was thought to be relatively impossible.

Versteeg and Beauchemin come to mind as does Toskala and Blake ( though Jason was someone else's mess he was cleaning up ).

Shoey should have teamed up with Derek Zoolander to learn how to turn left good and do other things good too.

 

[Kin]

Sticking with Komi is/was pretty much a given, the team was winning and you couldn't demote him or trade him at the time with that contract and recent playing/injury history. I guess you could have sat him but that doesn't solve a lot ( I don't think Lashoff would have provided much of a gain, not sure if there was really an internal option there )

The whole point of what I said is that they didn't make moves early on when they weren't winning. And it's important to keep in mind in the early part of the season that the 1st defensive call-up wouldn't have been Lashoff but Aulie.

Lebda I just don't get at all but Burke did manage to use him in place of a bucket of pucks one year in when it was thought to be relatively impossible.

I think you're confusing "can't" with "shouldn't" there.

Versteeg and Beauchemin come to mind as does Toskala and Blake ( though Jason was someone else's mess he was cleaning up ).

Versteeg and Beauchemin strike me less as dealing guys who weren't working immediately than dealing guys who could be moved in the sort of mini-rebuild we saw last year once the team was already out of contention. Toskala is another guy who got dealt pretty much as late as possible once the season was already gone.

 

[Tigger]

Sticking with Komi is/was pretty much a given, the team was winning and you couldn't demote him or trade him at the time with that contract and recent playing/injury history. I guess you could have sat him but that doesn't solve a lot ( I don't think Lashoff would have provided much of a gain, not sure if there was really an internal option there )

The whole point of what I said is that they didn't make moves early on when they weren't winning. And it's important to keep in mind in the early part of the season that the 1st defensive call-up wouldn't have been Lashoff but Aulie.

Not sure how Burke is supposed fix a mistake in two months in this NHL, first off. Second I had Aulie figured in already, he was called up early when Dion was injured in spite of what I said about the team winning... Komi is just not very correctable.

Versteeg and Beauchemin strike me less as dealing guys who weren't working immediately than dealing guys who could be moved in the sort of mini-rebuild we saw last year once the team was already out of contention. Toskala is another guy who got dealt pretty much as late as possible once the season was already gone.

Again in this NHL I'm not sure how you think the word immediate applies but corrections can't really happen in a vacuum. Versteeg was actually referred to as a mistake by Burke and I don't think you can really trade a guy faster than he was, in and out.

Beauchemin might be a better example of Burke finally relenting on his plan of 'acceleration', as you note in the form of a mini rebuild.

Not sure what you mean with 'can't' and 'shouldn't' regarding Lebda.

 

[Deebo]

To me, Versteeg was a player who was dealt because he wasn't working out here. His contract status (1 year left, RFA at the end of deal) suggests to me that if management felt he was going been a key part of the team going forward, they would have kept him.

 

[ZBBM]

I honestly wonder if, back when he made the Kessel deal, he was really banking on landing the Sedins.

Maybe. That sounds like the sort of full speed ahead thing he'd do.

I hadn't thought of that before.  That's the only possible explanation I've ever heard that would make the deal make sense.  But if so, I think we can class the move under "Reckless."

 

[bustaheims]

I honestly wonder if, back when he made the Kessel deal, he was really banking on landing the Sedins.

I highly doubt it. I think he was just too eager to make his mark on the franchise. I mean, the Sedins had re-signed before the Kessel deal came to fruition. Unless you feel that it made made in reaction to not landing the Sedins, but, that doesn't seem like a Burke-type reaction, especially since we know he had been in discussions for Kessel as early as the draft. If it was really tied to landing the Sedins, it likely wouldn't have happened at all.

 

[Bender]

I honestly wonder if, back when he made the Kessel deal, he was really banking on landing the Sedins.

I highly doubt it. I think he was just too eager to make his mark on the franchise. I mean, the Sedins had re-signed before the Kessel deal came to fruition. Unless you feel that it made made in reaction to not landing the Sedins, but, that doesn't seem like a Burke-type reaction, especially since we know he had been in discussions for Kessel as early as the draft. If it was really tied to landing the Sedins, it likely wouldn't have happened at all.

I really don't want to wade into the Kessel debate again... or here... blah.

But... I don't know how you can classify the move as reckless as much as it was a gamble. I'd call it a miscalculation to some degree, but I don't think I would call it reckless. I don't think you'd be able to say that until the careers of Kessel and Seguin are in the books.

Anyway, I think we should get back on topic of internal competition and not rehash something that's even more tired than the tired jfj joke removed joke.

 

[princedpw]

Versteeg was actually referred to as a mistake by Burke and I don't think you can really trade a guy faster than he was, in and out.

Beauchemin might be a better example of Burke finally relenting on his plan of 'acceleration', as you note in the form of a mini rebuild.

Even though Burke called the Versteeg purchase a mistake and Beauchemin didn't quite give us what we hoped, I think one can view both the Versteeg and Beauchemin transactions as positives for the Leafs.  In Versteeg's case, he facilitated a transaction in which Stalberg more-or-less wound up being converted in to a 1st round pick.  Stalberg is now 25, turning 26 in January.  The 1st round pick is probably 18.  So we've shifted a prospect taken in the 5th round back roughly 7 years.  As part of a ongoing rebuild, that seems like a good move.

Likewise, Beauchemin was a UFA purchase for nothing but cash.  He also was converted in to a prospect and of course his money was freed up to purchase some other free agent in the future.

If we keep rolling over the roster this way, one can hope we will eventually make some progress.  I'm hoping Connolly plays well and 1.5 years from now, we can trade him away to a contender for more futures.

 

[bustaheims]

Likewise, Beauchemin was a UFA purchase for nothing but cash.  He also was converted in to a prospect and of course his money was freed up to purchase some other free agent in the future.

That's not really true of the Beauchemin deal - his cap hit was translated directly into Lupul.

 

[Bender]

Likewise, Beauchemin was a UFA purchase for nothing but cash.  He also was converted in to a prospect and of course his money was freed up to purchase some other free agent in the future.

That's not really true of the Beauchemin deal - his cap hit was translated directly into Lupul.

Lupul is a bit of a risk, but he still provides, at least, a possibility as a first line forward, and a good second line forward. Every transaction, to some degree, is a calculated risk and I think so far he's been a good one based on his play last year.

 

[Kin]

Not sure how Burke is supposed fix a mistake in two months in this NHL, first off.

By sending him to the press box. It happens all the time when guys aren't playing well.

Again in this NHL I'm not sure how you think the word immediate applies but corrections can't really happen in a vacuum. Versteeg was actually referred to as a mistake by Burke and I don't think you can really trade a guy faster than he was, in and out.

You sort of missed my point there. It's not that they didn't happen immediately, although Beauchemin absolutely didn't get dealt immediately, but that I don't think trading either guy was necessarily a reflection of their own play while here and instead were the result of a realization on Burke's part that his accelerated rebuild had been a bit of a false start and he needed to reload. Beauchemin was far from the worst aspect of the team's defense and Versteeg was on pace for a 20+ goal, 50+ point season. Both guys were traded for pretty decent returns because they had value.

So I don't look at either trade as being in the context of Burke realizing he'd made a mistake with those players so much as realizing that the whole "retool, not rebuild" strategy wasn't really getting the team very far.

Not sure what you mean with 'can't' and 'shouldn't' regarding Lebda.

That was just a joke.

 

[Kin]

I highly doubt it. I think he was just too eager to make his mark on the franchise. I mean, the Sedins had re-signed before the Kessel deal came to fruition. Unless you feel that it made made in reaction to not landing the Sedins, but, that doesn't seem like a Burke-type reaction, especially since we know he had been in discussions for Kessel as early as the draft. If it was really tied to landing the Sedins, it likely wouldn't have happened at all.

Where I was going with that was that I thought it sort of fit into the general approach he was taking. I think he was planning to make a big time offer to the Sedins if they hit the market and so talking Kessel at the draft would have been part of that plan. Sign the Sedins, trade for Kessel and instant first line. That goes a long way towards the short rebuild that Burke was aiming for.

Then, with the Sedins off the market, I think the Kessel deal was sort of a consolation prize/what have you where, as you say, he still wanted to make a big splash. With the Sedins in tow, the Kessel deal makes a lot more sense and I think that's how the idea got hatched.

 

[princedpw]

Likewise, Beauchemin was a UFA purchase for nothing but cash.  He also was converted in to a prospect and of course his money was freed up to purchase some other free agent in the future.

That's not really true of the Beauchemin deal - his cap hit was translated directly into Lupul.

Good point... Forgot about that.  Still, the young asset gained for Beauch makes him a positive overall.  Lupul's contract is relatively short term and so far he's helped us.

 

[bustaheims]

Where I was going with that was that I thought it sort of fit into the general approach he was taking. I think he was planning to make a big time offer to the Sedins if they hit the market and so talking Kessel at the draft would have been part of that plan. Sign the Sedins, trade for Kessel and instant first line. That goes a long way towards the short rebuild that Burke was aiming for.

Then, with the Sedins off the market, I think the Kessel deal was sort of a consolation prize/what have you where, as you say, he still wanted to make a big splash. With the Sedins in tow, the Kessel deal makes a lot more sense and I think that's how the idea got hatched.

I see where you're coming from, but, I just don't buy it. I think Kessel was Burke's top priority from day 1. He had to know that signing the Sedins was a long-shot at best, and he had to be working from that POV.

 

[Bender]

Where I was going with that was that I thought it sort of fit into the general approach he was taking. I think he was planning to make a big time offer to the Sedins if they hit the market and so talking Kessel at the draft would have been part of that plan. Sign the Sedins, trade for Kessel and instant first line. That goes a long way towards the short rebuild that Burke was aiming for.

Then, with the Sedins off the market, I think the Kessel deal was sort of a consolation prize/what have you where, as you say, he still wanted to make a big splash. With the Sedins in tow, the Kessel deal makes a lot more sense and I think that's how the idea got hatched.

I see where you're coming from, but, I just don't buy it. I think Kessel was Burke's top priority from day 1. He had to know that signing the Sedins was a long-shot at best, and he had to be working from that POV.

Listening to the behind the draft videos really does show that there is a lot of consensus building within the regime. Burke won't go and do something just because he's a blowhard surrounded by yes men. I think the consensus they try to reach is generally "How can we make the team better?" and they're pretty honest about making the team better. Maybe there's a difference of philosophy that we aren't privy to that can justify some of his decisions. The only thing you can do is minimize failure. At the same time we're not privy to the bucketloads of information they come across every day in terms of trades, players on the block, trades that were agreed upon but fell apart etc etc.

All I can say is so far I think Burke is doing a better than average job, and can actually see some direction with the organization as opposed to when we were becoming the New York Islanders under JFJ.

 

[Kin]

I see where you're coming from, but, I just don't buy it. I think Kessel was Burke's top priority from day 1. He had to know that signing the Sedins was a long-shot at best, and he had to be working from that POV.

Admittedly it's dicey territory when we start trying to guess at why Burke decided to do something but I can't help but think this makes a degree of sense, maybe more than the opposite. Thinking "We're going to avoid a long rebuild, and we're going to do it with Phil Kessel and the Sedins" makes Burke come off as a risk-taker, sure, but a much better risk taker than a guy who thought "we're going to avoid a long rebuild and we're going to do it with Phil Kessel, Mike Komisarek and Francois Beauchemin and whoever may be available down the line"

And I think it sort of wouldn't surprise me based on what led to his success in Anaheim. A big chunk of the Ducks' success was based on three HOF players being available in sort of unusual fashion and I think, to put a pin in the specifics of the Sedins for a second,  Burke's initial plan here was to do something similar. Acquire high level talent immediately and be competitive as soon as possible. Where his plan stalled was that no talent of that nature really became available.

It's why I think we've seen a shift in gears this off-season. This was an off-season where talent of that nature was available and Burke really didn't seem to be all that serious about pursuing it and favouring a slower building process than a Brad Richards/Mike Richards/ Jeff Carter team would be.

Either way, it's something I want to believe as I'd hate to think that the Kessel trade wasn't connected to something larger that fell through. Then it just looks, well, not something good anyway.

 

[nutman]

I see where you're coming from, but, I just don't buy it. I think Kessel was Burke's top priority from day 1. He had to know that signing the Sedins was a long-shot at best, and he had to be working from that POV.

Admittedly it's dicey territory when we start trying to guess at why Burke decided to do something but I can't help but think this makes a degree of sense, maybe more than the opposite. Thinking "We're going to avoid a long rebuild, and we're going to do it with Phil Kessel and the Sedins" makes Burke come off as a risk-taker, sure, but a much better risk taker than a guy who thought "we're going to avoid a long rebuild and we're going to do it with Phil Kessel, Mike Komisarek and Francois Beauchemin and whoever may be available down the line"

And I think it sort of wouldn't surprise me based on what led to his success in Anaheim. A big chunk of the Ducks' success was based on three HOF players being available in sort of unusual fashion and I think, to put a pin in the specifics of the Sedins for a second,  Burke's initial plan here was to do something similar. Acquire high level talent immediately and be competitive as soon as possible. Where his plan stalled was that no talent of that nature really became available.

It's why I think we've seen a shift in gears this off-season. This was an off-season where talent of that nature was available and Burke really didn't seem to be all that serious about pursuing it and favouring a slower building process than a Brad Richards/Mike Richards/ Jeff Carter team would be.

Either way, it's something I want to believe as I'd hate to think that the Kessel trade wasn't connected to something larger that fell through. Then it just looks, well, not something good anyway.

You think the fact Kessel is young and a solid first line player could have just a bit do do with getting him. he is a player you can build around.maybe not a
crosby but still very good,and going to get better.