Is Nonis pulling these strings?

[cw]

And in that role, as we've discussed, he or the new candidate would be doing transactions to clean up the contracts on this roster and rebuild, etc.

Unfortunately the specifics of that etcetera matters and "doing transactions" isn't really much in the way of an explanation of his actual responsibilities.

I think most people agree that when it comes to who to trade and who to keep the decisions aren't going to be made by Nonis or whoever is in that role. So take a specific example.

Let's say the decision is made to trade Phaneuf. Is Nonis the person who's deciding which prospects to ask for in return? Weighing the prospective value of a first rounder from, say, Minnesota vs. one from Colorado? Will he be deciding whether to look to sign Kadri to a short term vs. a long term deal? Will he be making the day to day decisions on which Marlies to call up? Which bargain UFA's to sign? Or will he just be doing the grunt work on these things and leaving the final decisions to Shanahan? Will he just be a voice, along with Dubas and Hunter, advising Shanahan?

Reality is we won't know the specific management structure or how tasks will be delegated so it's impossible for anyone to say what "the best" candidate for the job would even look like.

Nonis remaining does not demonstrate to the players, NHL, etc that there has been accountability for his role in this debacle - and as GM up until this year, he had a significant role.

As the guy who made the deals they're looking at disposing of, and from the deadline, they've come to realize that's not going to be that easy or provide that great of a return, Nonis would be remaining as an influencer lacking some objectivity.

And it doesn't really explain how we can say he's the best man for any role relative to the balance of the hockey executives available from the rest of the hockey world.

Nor does it explain what the heck they'd want to hang on to him for aside from saving themselves a few dollars relative to the billion dollars the franchise is worth.

It's kind of remarkable to me that folks are quickly content to show Horachek the door when he got parachuted into a situation with suspect talent and suspect character but not the one guy left in this organization who had a lot to do with signing this collection of suspect talent and suspect character to some contracts that look like they'll be tough to unload for much talent return and were the root cause for this debacle of a season.

Looks like a double standard is being applied and no one has been able to make a good case for why they should even bother to continue with Nonis when they have an entire hockey market to check out for candidates to replace him.

 

[Kin]

It's kind of remarkable to me that folks are quickly content to show Horachek the door when he got parachuted into a situation with suspect talent and suspect character but not the one guy left in this organization who had a lot to do with signing this collection of suspect talent and suspect character to some contracts that look like they'll be tough to unload for much talent return and were the root cause for this debacle of a season.

Looks like a double standard is being applied and no one has been able to make a good case for why they should even bother to continue with Nonis when they have an entire hockey market to check out for candidates to replace him.

See, all that says to me is that other people are actually saying doesn't even vaguely register with you and how you're more interested in whatever single-minded vendetta you're carrying out than having an actual conversation . Nobody is particularly arguing for Nonis should stay or that he's "the best person for the job".

I mean, the furthest I'm willing to say is that I think he's done alright enough in the severely reduced role he has these days that I'm comfortable with his future with the club being decided by Shanahan or whoever ends up being the guy who makes the big picture decisions for the club going forward. If the decision is made to move on, fine. If not, he's not going to have enough authority to have a major impact on the team going forward.

But keep tilting at those windmills.

 

[cw]

It's kind of remarkable to me that folks are quickly content to show Horachek the door when he got parachuted into a situation with suspect talent and suspect character but not the one guy left in this organization who had a lot to do with signing this collection of suspect talent and suspect character to some contracts that look like they'll be tough to unload for much talent return and were the root cause for this debacle of a season.

Looks like a double standard is being applied and no one has been able to make a good case for why they should even bother to continue with Nonis when they have an entire hockey market to check out for candidates to replace him.

See, all that says to me is that other people are actually saying doesn't even vaguely register with you and how you're more interested in whatever single-minded vendetta you're carrying out than having an actual conversation . Nobody is particularly arguing for Nonis should stay or that he's "the best person for the job".

I mean, the furthest I'm willing to say is that I think he's done alright enough in the severely reduced role he has these days that I'm comfortable with his future with the club being decided by Shanahan or whoever ends up being the guy who makes the big picture decisions for the club going forward.

It's not a single minded vendetta. That's just your fervent fantasizing, again, getting the better of you.

I've stated several times over that I like the man and always have - saying so long before he ever arrived in Toronto. I've also said some key reasons for wanting to replace him are things like accountability and objectivity several times over. Your failure to grasp or accept and lamely try to fantasize a vendetta suggests you have some sort of reading comprehension issue. I have provided rational, sensible, and/or logical reasons - not emotional ones.

Unlike you evidently, I happen to believe accountability is important to hockey players and organizations. It always has been. As much as I like Dave, I think holding him accountable is important to the players, staff and employees and the customers (fans) of this organization and going forward, a little down the road, to potential players or staff this organization would like to attract.

The results of this season are horrific. No stone should be left unturned to insure what ails this franchise is purged thoroughly. Getting the manager out of the way who contracted the players who will also have to be purged clears the way for the players to be reviewed objectively and purged as warranted. Yet Dave isn't really a stone we need to turn over. We have a pretty good idea a big chunk of responsibility for this mess lies under Dave's big stone. That's a stone we simply need to throw away so we can move on.

If the decision is made to move on, fine. If not, he's not going to have enough authority to have a major impact on the team going forward.

But keep tilting at those windmills.

That's nonsense. How do we know that? Because as long as he's around, particularly with the GM title or one close to it, we won't know precisely how much authority he'll retain, how much influence he'll have and how much impact positive or negative he'll have on the team. No matter what you say, you can't verify that. And the public, franchise and league may well be left with that quizzical perception. I can't see much good coming from that. It leaves more dubious questions when all it should provide are answers.

You don't clean up half the mess after such a disaster. You clean up all of it such that there's absolutely no question going forward because confidence in the organization has been shaken. Their actions should be impeccable - beyond reproach. Time to clean the slate. And you do that by changing the manager responsible - holding him accountable - not with a title shift but with a good swift kick in the ass out the door.

Dave's a good enough hockey man that I'm sure he'll land on his feet in hockey. There are a lot of other good capable men in hockey who can replace him and can help to remove the dark cloud over this team faster.

There's zero vendetta here. I want what is best for the franchise. As much as Dave's a nice hockey man, what I believe is best for the franchise is that he doesn't work for it any more. We all need to move on.

 

[slapshot]

I think Nonis will be replaced by Hunter eventually, but I am not sure when the timing of that will be.

1. He (not Burke) made the decision to lock up most of the core guys to long term, big salaried contracts. Essentially saying they were the ones to build around. Obviously he erred in that judgment or backed himself into a situation where he risked losing them before trying to move them. Clearly his evaluation of them was off.
2. Secondly, he essentially admitted their leadership was not sufficient and was forced to try to add supporting leadership in guys like Robidas. I think a team like Florida has done a much better job of adding leadership around their young players.

I think Nonis has done a decent job of adding fill-in type players on a season by season basis, but his big picture view of them team's building blocks was off. He put his trust in these guys and it's become obvious he was betting on the wrong horse.

 

[Kin]

Unlike you evidently, I happen to believe accountability is important to hockey players and organizations. It always has been. As much as I like Dave, I think holding him accountable is important to the players, staff and employees and the customers (fans) of this organization and going forward, a little down the road, to potential players or staff this organization would like to attract.

Nonis has been held accountable by virtually all accounts. He no longer has the authority he once did. He's no longer running the hockey club in any meaningful way by most accounts. The big decisions are being made by Shanahan. You don't want accountability.You want a scapegoat. You said it yourself, you want Nonis to be a bone that the team throws the fan so they can make a big public showing of "accountability" without actual regards to what's going on. You want theatre, not results. You have absolutely nothing in the way of factual basis to say that Nonis around in a minor role will do harm to the club outside of in the eyes of people as reactionary and, quite frankly, unhinged on the matter as you seem to be. The Leafs shouldn't make their decisions based on the loudest, least reasonable fans who are just out for blood.

All of your arguments, rather than being logical, are being made on the basis of unreasonable conjecture. Nonis "might" not have objectivity when it comes to aiding in the rebuild, something you have no proof for. Nonis' presence "might" scare away free agents, when we all know that the 20-something knuckle heads who choose where to play do so on their love of the principle of accountability rather than money, nightlife or golf courses. If Nonis is a good hockey man, if he's a reasonable one, people will know that, will respect that and it won't interfere with his performing a minor role. What's happened with the team since february is evidence, a word you might not be familiar with the concept of, of that argument.

But again, my argument isn't even that Nonis should stay, it's that whoever ends up running the team is the best qualified to make that judgment, not you in your armchair inventing nonsense. 

The results of this season are horrific.

Hey, more ridiculous, perspective-less hyperbole. Get a grip.

That's nonsense. How do we know that? Because as long as he's around, particularly with the GM title or one close to it, we won't know precisely how much authority he'll retain, how much influence he'll have and how much impact positive or negative he'll have on the team. No matter what you say, you can't verify that. And the public, franchise and league may well be left with that quizzical perception. I can't see much good coming from that. It leaves more dubious questions when all it should provide are answers.

If your argument was that coming out of this season they should clear up who in the front office is doing what and who's responsible for what and that having Nonis at the head of the club was no longer acceptable, you might have a point. If you were arguing for clarity as opposed to this bogus desire to see someone symbolically hanged so that this "horrific disaster" can be purged from the minds of the public that might have some merit.

But again, you're still not actually arguing against anyone because, again, nobody's opinion matters to you beyond whatever conclusions you've already reached before starting. Nobody is arguing strongly that Nonis should stay. Nobody is arguing that he should run the team. You really need to get that through your head.

 

[cw]

Unlike you evidently, I happen to believe accountability is important to hockey players and organizations. It always has been. As much as I like Dave, I think holding him accountable is important to the players, staff and employees and the customers (fans) of this organization and going forward, a little down the road, to potential players or staff this organization would like to attract.

Nonis has been held accountable by virtually all accounts. He no longer has the authority he once did. He's no longer running the hockey club in any meaningful way by most accounts. The big decisions are being made by Shanahan. You don't want accountability.You want a scapegoat. You said it yourself, you want Nonis to be a bone that the team throws the fan so they can make a big public showing of "accountability" without actual regards to what's going on. You want theatre, not results. You have absolutely nothing in the way of factual basis to say that Nonis around in a minor role will do harm to the club outside of in the eyes of people as reactionary and, quite frankly, unhinged on the matter as you seem to be. The Leafs shouldn't make their decisions based on the loudest, least reasonable fans who are just out for blood.

All of your arguments, rather than being logical, are being made on the basis of unreasonable conjecture. Nonis "might" not have objectivity when it comes to aiding in the rebuild, something you have no proof for. Nonis' presence "might" scare away free agents, when we all know that the 20-something knuckle heads who choose where to play do so on their love of the principle of accountability rather than money, nightlife or golf courses. If Nonis is a good hockey man, if he's a reasonable one, people will know that, will respect that and it won't interfere with his performing a minor role. What's happened with the team since february is evidence, a word you might not be familiar with the concept of, of that argument.

But again, my argument isn't even that Nonis should stay, it's that whoever ends up running the team is the best qualified to make that judgment, not you in your armchair inventing nonsense. 

The results of this season are horrific.

Hey, more ridiculous, perspective-less hyperbole. Get a grip.

That's nonsense. How do we know that? Because as long as he's around, particularly with the GM title or one close to it, we won't know precisely how much authority he'll retain, how much influence he'll have and how much impact positive or negative he'll have on the team. No matter what you say, you can't verify that. And the public, franchise and league may well be left with that quizzical perception. I can't see much good coming from that. It leaves more dubious questions when all it should provide are answers.

If your argument was that coming out of this season they should clear up who in the front office is doing what and who's responsible for what and that having Nonis at the head of the club was no longer acceptable, you might have a point. If you were arguing for clarity as opposed to this bogus desire to see someone symbolically hanged so that this "horrific disaster" can be purged from the minds of the public that might have some merit.

But again, you're still not actually arguing against anyone because, again, nobody's opinion matters to you beyond whatever conclusions you've already reached before starting. Nobody is arguing strongly that Nonis should stay. Nobody is arguing that he should run the team. You really need to get that through your head.

More twisting of words to attribute positions to me that I have not taken or do not support.

 

[Highlander]

I second Nik, where is the 3rd and 4th.