Jake Gardiner

[Corn Flake]

Yes, again it may look like the Liles signing may come back to bite us.  Gardiner's defence along with Liles and really even Phaneuf may take some of the lustre off their offensive contributions.  Franson is in the same boat, week defensively and a plus on the offensive side.  We need to deal some of this away for some solid back end defensive help and I don't think that should be a difficult task.  Offensive flair goes along way in the trade dept.

Liles would have value if they wanted to trade him.

Franson for sure has plenty of value.  They probably need to cut bait there. I think they will, with Holzer set to move up to the NHL for sure.

Brian Allen is the guy I'm thinking should be the prime UFA target.  Would allow them to move Schenn much more comfortably and improve the #4 position.

 

[maplesyrup]

The one bright light on this abysmal season.

One of two I think.

Gardiner, Kessel, Lupul at least.

Lupul too, yes... Fair enough.

Grabbo.
Gunarsson.
maybe Frattin, although stint at the end was short, but good.

I'm not going to **** my pants over those guys. 

 

[Corn Flake]

The one bright light on this abysmal season.

One of two I think.

Gardiner, Kessel, Lupul at least.

Lupul too, yes... Fair enough.

Grabbo.
Gunarsson.
maybe Frattin, although stint at the end was short, but good.

I'm not going to **** my pants over those guys. 

I hope none of the guys make you do that.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Yes, again it may look like the Liles signing may come back to bite us.  Gardiner's defence along with Liles and really even Phaneuf may take some of the lustre off their offensive contributions.

IMO, Liles has a good contract and would be easy enough to move, so bad signing? Not sure I look at him in that light.

 

[bustaheims]

mirtle: Jake Gardiner makes all rookie team with Faulk, Landeskog, Henrique, Nugent-Hopkins and Enroth.

 

[maplesyrup]

Hey, I'll take it.

 

[cw]

Yes, again it may look like the Liles signing may come back to bite us.  Gardiner's defence along with Liles and really even Phaneuf may take some of the lustre off their offensive contributions.

IMO, Liles has a good contract and would be easy enough to move, so bad signing? Not sure I look at him in that light.

His cap hit is top 50 among NHL dmen. Would you say he's one of the top 50 dmen in the league? We could bicker about the correlation between cap hit and ability. But I think he's so far down the list that his standing there defies "good contract". He's not great defensively and he can't PK. He's a puck mover and is so-so on the PP. He's a limited dman on where he can be used.

It's not as bad as Komisarek's deal but when he's playing the 5-6 pairing making that dough, as I expect he will be long before his deal is done, folks will be howling. I think it was one of Burke's poorer contracts and he won't be that easy to move - it would be closer to a dump than a great return on assets.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

His cap hit is top 50 among NHL dmen. Would you say he's one of the top 50 dmen in the league? We could bicker about the correlation between cap hit and ability. But I think he's so far down the list that his standing there defies "good contract". He's not great defensively and he can't PK. He's a puck mover and is so-so on the PP. He's a limited dman on where he can be used.

It's not as bad as Komisarek's deal but when he's playing the 5-6 pairing making that dough, as I expect he will be long before his deal is done, folks will be howling. I think it was one of Burke's poorer contracts and he won't be that easy to move - it would be closer to a dump than a great return on assets.

Well, we only gave up a 2nd for him, is that a great return? The only thing that concerns me about Liles is his concussion last season and whether or not he can bounce back, not if we will get a huge return on him if he's traded.

I don't think that Burke wants to trade him, he'll be in our top 4 this season and get lots of PP time. I believe that Gunnarsson will get traded before he will I think.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Gardiner playing in the NHL was a wonderful development but his value is getting overrated by some. He's great with the puck and his feet moving. His foot speed clears up a lot of his poor decisions. He's substandard without the puck and so far I've seen nothing more than modest offensive abilities and instincts. There's nothing to suggest that he's untouchable but you only consider moving him for something substantial, he's going to play in this league for the next 10-15 seasons.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

I think of the Liles' signing as a free agent signing. The Leafs had to pay generously to sign him before July 1st. They may have even gotten a discount with him having a concussion this season. I do believe that the Leafs will looking to dump this contract at some point like most of the team's longer term free agent contracts since the lockout. I almost hope that's the case because if this team is relying heavily on Liles in a few years' time, the team will not have progressed past the mediocrity of the past 7 seasons.

 

[cw]

His cap hit is top 50 among NHL dmen. Would you say he's one of the top 50 dmen in the league? We could bicker about the correlation between cap hit and ability. But I think he's so far down the list that his standing there defies "good contract". He's not great defensively and he can't PK. He's a puck mover and is so-so on the PP. He's a limited dman on where he can be used.

It's not as bad as Komisarek's deal but when he's playing the 5-6 pairing making that dough, as I expect he will be long before his deal is done, folks will be howling. I think it was one of Burke's poorer contracts and he won't be that easy to move - it would be closer to a dump than a great return on assets.

Well, we only gave up a 2nd for him, is that a great return? The only thing that concerns me about Liles is his concussion last season and whether or not he can bounce back, not if we will get a huge return on him if he's traded.

I don't think that Burke wants to trade him, he'll be in our top 4 this season and get lots of PP time. I believe that Gunnarsson will get traded before he will I think.

That doesn't directly address your claim of him having a "good contract".

Gunnarsson currently has a "good contract" so he is more tradeable. He's not as good offensively but he's better defensively. And so they're roughly comparable talent levels I suppose.

Liles should have been moved prior to the deadline in my opinion.

Let's say Gunnarsson-Phaneuf remain as a pairing in the top 4, as seems likely right now. You can't very well pair Liles with Phanuef because then you have two dmen together who are not great defensively (as they found out last season).

Gardiner & Liles can't fill out the second top 4 pairing because they're both puck movers lacking defence - they need some meat with their partner.  The future is Gardiner. Therefore, on paper, Liles was looking like a 5-6 pairing guy in the near future before they signed him. And they gave him nearly $4 mil/season for that vision.

There are loads of cheaper 5-6 puck movers available on the UFA market. They may not be quite as good but the money saved could help in other areas of the roster. Meanwhile, we have guys like Franson who might do well as a 5-6 puck mover and Blacker & Percy coming along well before Liles contract runs out.

Liles contract didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time and it still doesn't. He's paid as a top 50 dman in the NHL and I don't think he's that close to top 50.

 

[bustaheims]

His cap hit is top 50 among NHL dmen. Would you say he's one of the top 50 dmen in the league? We could bicker about the correlation between cap hit and ability. But I think he's so far down the list that his standing there defies "good contract". He's not great defensively and he can't PK. He's a puck mover and is so-so on the PP. He's a limited dman on where he can be used.

Before the sun sets on July 1st, he will no longer be in the top 50 for cap hits among defencemen, and, even so, he's paid in the same range as such luminaries as Eric Brewer and Josh Gorges. This season was the first time in his NHL career he posted less than 31 points. He may not be a defensive stalwart, but he's a consistent offensive contributor and, yes, he probably is roughly the 50th or so best defenceman not on an ELC in the league. He's not overpaid for what he brings, he's just no bargain either.

 

[ZBBM]

Gardiner playing in the NHL was a wonderful development but his value is getting overrated by some. He's great with the puck and his feet moving. His foot speed clears up a lot of his poor decisions. He's substandard without the puck and so far I've seen nothing more than modest offensive abilities and instincts. There's nothing to suggest that he's untouchable but you only consider moving him for something substantial, he's going to play in this league for the next 10-15 seasons.

I agree that we may be overrating him, and that he is not untouchable, as many on here now think.  But his deficiencies (so far) are on the defensive side, and, as you say, positionally.  He has more than "modest" offensive talent.

 

[princedpw]

What other defencemen was Gardiner up against?  Did he beat out other guys I might know? 

(Does this award mean much in terms of how I should adjust my assessment of his potential?  For instance, he's not going to turn in to Karlsson next year is he? ... that last one as a little rhetorical.)

 

[princedpw]

His cap hit is top 50 among NHL dmen. Would you say he's one of the top 50 dmen in the league? We could bicker about the correlation between cap hit and ability. But I think he's so far down the list that his standing there defies "good contract". He's not great defensively and he can't PK. He's a puck mover and is so-so on the PP. He's a limited dman on where he can be used.

It's not as bad as Komisarek's deal but when he's playing the 5-6 pairing making that dough, as I expect he will be long before his deal is done, folks will be howling. I think it was one of Burke's poorer contracts and he won't be that easy to move - it would be closer to a dump than a great return on assets.

Well, we only gave up a 2nd for him, is that a great return? The only thing that concerns me about Liles is his concussion last season and whether or not he can bounce back, not if we will get a huge return on him if he's traded.

I don't think that Burke wants to trade him, he'll be in our top 4 this season and get lots of PP time. I believe that Gunnarsson will get traded before he will I think.

That doesn't directly address your claim of him having a "good contract".

Gunnarsson currently has a "good contract" so he is more tradeable. He's not as good offensively but he's better defensively. And so they're roughly comparable talent levels I suppose.

Liles should have been moved prior to the deadline in my opinion.

Let's say Gunnarsson-Phaneuf remain as a pairing in the top 4, as seems likely right now. You can't very well pair Liles with Phanuef because then you have two dmen together who are not great defensively (as they found out last season).

Gardiner & Liles can't fill out the second top 4 pairing because they're both puck movers lacking defence - they need some meat with their partner.  The future is Gardiner. Therefore, on paper, Liles was looking like a 5-6 pairing guy in the near future before they signed him. And they gave him nearly $4 mil/season for that vision.

There are loads of cheaper 5-6 puck movers available on the UFA market. They may not be quite as good but the money saved could help in other areas of the roster. Meanwhile, we have guys like Franson who might do well as a 5-6 puck mover and Blacker & Percy coming along well before Liles contract runs out.

Liles contract didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time and it still doesn't. He's paid as a top 50 dman in the NHL and I don't think he's that close to top 50.

Perhaps the problematic composition of the top 4/relative redundancy in offensive defencemen suggests that Gardiner might be moved for a center of similar age and potential, if a good pairing can be found. 

... off the top of my head, Matt Duchene is a guy that comes to mind.  I know he's been discussed on these boards in the past.  I know he had a bit of a down year last year.  I can't remember exactly why.  (I do know that if I suggested 2 years ago that we could trade Beauchemin for Lupul and Duchene, you'all would be pretty excited, but I suppose that's neither here nor there -- it isn't two years ago.)  I don't know if Matt is defensively strong enough to play on the top line with defensive weaklings Kessel and Lupul -- probably not I suppose.

 

[Tigger]

What other defencemen was Gardiner up against?  Did he beat out other guys I might know? 

(Does this award mean much in terms of how I should adjust my assessment of his potential?  For instance, he's not going to turn in to Karlsson next year is he? ... that last one as a little rhetorical.)

He led all rookie dmen in scoring but I don't know who was in 'second' place, so to speak. Also, it took Karlsson 3 years to become 'Karlsson' ( for some reason I'm thinking of Les Nessman and muffins here... ), so probably not ( or perhaps semi-rhetoric-relative ) but hopefully a similar curve.

 

[rdowdall]

What other defencemen was Gardiner up against?  Did he beat out other guys I might know? 

(Does this award mean much in terms of how I should adjust my assessment of his potential?  For instance, he's not going to turn in to Karlsson next year is he? ... that last one as a little rhetorical.)

He led all rookie dmen in scoring but I don't know who was in 'second' place, so to speak. Also, it took Karlsson 3 years to become 'Karlsson' ( for some reason I'm thinking of Les Nessman and muffins here... ), so probably not ( or perhaps semi-rhetoric-relative ) but hopefully a similar curve.

Karlsson is the same age as Gardiner.  So that throws the curve off a bit.

 

[Tigger]

What other defencemen was Gardiner up against?  Did he beat out other guys I might know? 

(Does this award mean much in terms of how I should adjust my assessment of his potential?  For instance, he's not going to turn in to Karlsson next year is he? ... that last one as a little rhetorical.)

He led all rookie dmen in scoring but I don't know who was in 'second' place, so to speak. Also, it took Karlsson 3 years to become 'Karlsson' ( for some reason I'm thinking of Les Nessman and muffins here... ), so probably not ( or perhaps semi-rhetoric-relative ) but hopefully a similar curve.

Karlsson is the same age as Gardiner.  So that throws the curve off a bit.

In terms of NHL development, not to me.

Edit to add, was Karlsson always a defenceman?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I beg of all of you to stop the Karlsson comparison. Please.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

What other defencemen was Gardiner up against?  Did he beat out other guys I might know? 

This isn't how the end-of-year teams are decided, but Gardiner finished 6th in the Calder voting, 1st among defencemen. The defencemen behind him were Justin Faulk, Slava Voynov, Jared Cowen, Marc-Andre Gragnani, and Adam Larsson. Not exactly a stellar group of defencemen (at least at the moment), but traditionally there aren't a lot of great rookie blueliners.

The voting results were posted here: http://www.630ched.com/Blogs/thebullpen/BlogEntry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10396790