Jake Gardiner

[bustaheims]

Well if that's the argument then ok(although I think that if a guy is physically slower months after a concussion it's pretty worrying for other reasons) but don't try to sell the developmental benefits of an NHL ready defenseman playing in the AHL.

I'm not convinced he's physically slower, but, it wouldn't surprise me if he was still mentally slower.

 

[rdowdall]

Well if that's the argument then ok(although I think that if a guy is physically slower months after a concussion it's pretty worrying for other reasons) but don't try to sell the developmental benefits of an NHL ready defenseman playing in the AHL.

Not physically slower, mentally slower.  Concussions can cause a whole host of problems.  The knock on him before they sent him down was that he was having trouble reacting to the plays in front of him.  It was probably best to send him down and have him play at a slower pace to gain confidence and get his timing back.  As has been discussed in other threads, the lingering effects of concussions are really unknown, and they appear to be different from person to person.

I don't buy that idea. Forget that he had his greatest coaching success with Scott Niedermayer as his #1 defenseman but the sort of defenseman we're talking about Carlyle disliking is the sort of defenseman that Carlyle himself was(a little more physical maybe but still).

Maybe Carlyle hates who he was. 

I get what you are saying.  I also don't think that Carlyle has a problem with Gardiner or d-men of his ilk.  I think this is more a situation where either Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner personally, Gardiner is being held back for health reasons, or it's a numbers thing and they aren't going to jumble the deck until they need too, like if they lose tonight and have their first three game losing streak of the season.  If it does come out that Carlyle doesn't like the way Gardiner plays the game, then that may be a problem for a guy like Reilly.  I haven't seen enough of Fowler to see if he is a rushing type d-man.  Niedermayer could play the game anyway you wanted to and knew when to rush and when not too.  Gardiner so far appears to be mainly a rushing type d-man.

 

[Kin]

Well if that's the argument then ok(although I think that if a guy is physically slower months after a concussion it's pretty worrying for other reasons) but don't try to sell the developmental benefits of an NHL ready defenseman playing in the AHL.

I'm not convinced he's physically slower, but, it wouldn't surprise me if he was still mentally slower.

I'm not convinced of the distinction but regardless it's troubling for the exact same reason.

 

[Kin]

Not physically slower, mentally slower.  Concussions can cause a whole host of problems.  The knock on him before they sent him down was that he was having trouble reacting to the plays in front of him.  It was probably best to send him down and have him play at a slower pace to gain confidence and get his timing back.

Like I said above I don't see the distinction there. Unless a guy is back to 100% I don't think he should be playing. If you're saying that even months after Gardiner is having lingering issues affecting his ability to react to things(which would make him physically slower but never mind) then there's a pretty serious problem that isn't going to be solved by playing against lesser players.

Maybe Carlyle hates who he was. 

I get what you are saying.  I also don't think that Carlyle has a problem with Gardiner or d-men of his ilk.  I think this is more a situation where either Carlyle doesn't like Gardiner personally, Gardiner is being held back for health reasons, or it's a numbers thing and they aren't going to jumble the deck until they need too, like if they lose tonight and have their first three game losing streak of the season.  If it does come out that Carlyle doesn't like the way Gardiner plays the game, then that may be a problem for a guy like Reilly.  I haven't seen enough of Fowler to see if he is a rushing type d-man.  Niedermayer could play the game anyway you wanted to and knew when to rush and when not too.  Gardiner so far appears to be mainly a rushing type d-man.

I haven't seen enough of Rielly to say that he's the same sort of defenseman as Gardiner but regardless I think that Nidermayer is a good counter-point to that because as good as he was he wasn't really the do everything kind of guy. Paired up with a physical beast like Pronger or Stevens and he could be pretty amazingly effective but he wasn't really a shutdown kind of guy the way they were.

 

[rdowdall]

Like I said above I don't see the distinction there. Unless a guy is back to 100% I don't think he should be playing. If you're saying that even months after Gardiner is having lingering issues affecting his ability to react to things(which would make him physically slower but never mind) then there's a pretty serious problem that isn't going to be solved by playing against lesser players.

But then by the same token, Reimer shouldn't be in the net.  He needs to wear a knee brace so he isn't 100%.  I don't know what the proper therapeutic treatment is for someone that has had a concussion.  I mean if his brain can't interpret information that is provided to him through the various senses that the body has, primarily sight and sound in this case, and then form the proper response along the nerve endings to react (which would make it a mental reaction time issue, but never mind) then how do you get his mind back up to that speed?  Players say that practice speed is not the same as game speed. 

I haven't seen enough of Rielly to say that he's the same sort of defenseman as Gardiner but regardless I think that Nidermayer is a good counter-point to that because as good as he was he wasn't really the do everything kind of guy. Paired up with a physical beast like Pronger or Stevens and he could be pretty amazingly effective but he wasn't really a shutdown kind of guy the way they were.

I don't think Carlyle likes d-men carrying the puck out of the zone.  I think he likes to have puck retrieval with puck support and quick passes out of the defensive zone.  At least that what it looks like currently because not a lot of the d-men on the Leafs rush the puck out.  I am not sure if that is because they have been told not too, or because the can't.  If it's because they can't, they have a guy sitting on the sideline in Liles who can, and he is not being used.  Nierdermayer could rush the puck or pass it. 

 

[Kin]

But then by the same token, Reimer shouldn't be in the net.  He needs to wear a knee brace so he isn't 100%.

Sure, if we ignore the difference between the knee and the brain.

As to the general point of rehabbing from concussions it seems to me that the general way teams deal with it is keeping guys out of the line-up until they're ready. It seems like they may take a bit of practice time before returning full-bore but that's typically mentioned as being as much about getting them in game shape as anything. Practice hockey doesn't seem to be part of the protocol.

Anyways, this is all off-topic slightly. If rehab is the reason, I'm not going to argue its efficacy because I ain't a doctor. I just don't buy the idea that it's good for his development.

 

[lc9]

But then by the same token, Reimer shouldn't be in the net.  He needs to wear a knee brace so he isn't 100%.

Sure, if we ignore the difference between the knee and the brain.

As to the general point of rehabbing from concussions it seems to me that the general way teams deal with it is keeping guys out of the line-up until they're ready. It seems like they may take a bit of practice time before returning full-bore but that's typically mentioned as being as much about getting them in game shape as anything. Practice hockey doesn't seem to be part of the protocol.

Anyways, this is all off-topic slightly. If rehab is the reason, I'm not going to argue its efficacy because I ain't a doctor. I just don't buy the idea that it's good for his development.

Well Jake's agent sure doesn't seem to think he has any lasting issues.

Let's be real here, it is a joke that Gardiner isn't up on the big team playing.  The Leafs are desperate for puck moving defenseman, and yet there Gardiner sits, in the minors.  The Leafs run their hockey team so poorly, from top to bottom. 

 

[drummond]

But then by the same token, Reimer shouldn't be in the net.  He needs to wear a knee brace so he isn't 100%.

Sure, if we ignore the difference between the knee and the brain.

As to the general point of rehabbing from concussions it seems to me that the general way teams deal with it is keeping guys out of the line-up until they're ready. It seems like they may take a bit of practice time before returning full-bore but that's typically mentioned as being as much about getting them in game shape as anything. Practice hockey doesn't seem to be part of the protocol.

Anyways, this is all off-topic slightly. If rehab is the reason, I'm not going to argue its efficacy because I ain't a doctor. I just don't buy the idea that it's good for his development.

Well Jake's agent sure doesn't seem to think he has any lasting issues.

Let's be real here, it is a joke that Gardiner isn't up on the big team playing.  The Leafs are desperate for puck moving defenseman, and yet there Gardiner sits, in the minors.  The Leafs run their hockey team so poorly, from top to bottom.

I would understand that if at least Liles were playing (log jam on D), but that poor fella sits and nobody actually knows why, Jake at least plays down there... curious what Liles agent thinks.

 

[Zee]

Would have been smart to get him back in the mix when the team was playing better.  Guys like Holzer and Kostka were having off nights so it would have been simple to get him in there.  Now with the Leafs in a losing streak, if he comes up it reeks of a desperation move, "save us Jake!"..too much pressure on the kid to be thrown in at this point. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

They're not in desperation mode, and I'm sure playing with the team last season was worse for his mindset than being brought up right now would be.

 

[rdowdall]

Sure, if we ignore the difference between the knee and the brain.

Sorry, I didn't know if "guy is back to 100%" should be applied in the general sense for any player that is injured, or in the more specific case of a player that has a concussion.  I realize that considering we were discussing specifically a player that had a concussion, I probably should have used the more specific case.

As to the general point of rehabbing from concussions it seems to me that the general way teams deal with it is keeping guys out of the line-up until they're ready. It seems like they may take a bit of practice time before returning full-bore but that's typically mentioned as being as much about getting them in game shape as anything. Practice hockey doesn't seem to be part of the protocol.

They wait until certain symptoms diminish, such as headaches, and mood swings.  However, specific players such as Liles last year and Bergeron when he came back after his time off, showed that they seemed to be a step behind for a while, and I don't believe that medical professionals know yet if that is due to the time off, or a longer lasting effect of suffering a concussion.

Anyways, this is all off-topic slightly. If rehab is the reason, I'm not going to argue its efficacy because I ain't a doctor. I just don't buy the idea that it's good for his development.

When the Leafs sent Gardiner down, they made the statement that they were doing so because he looked like he was half a step behind at the big club level.  They sent him down and said that he would be back up when he started to dominate the AHL like he was doing at the start of the AHL season.

Now he is playing better and starting to look like he has regained his form from earlier in the year so it has caused speculation as to why he is not on the big club.  Maybe the Leafs are moving him.  Maybe Carlyle doesn't like him.  I really don't know why he is still on the farm.  I do believe however that when they initially sent him down, it was because he just didn't look like the player he was last year, and the Leafs thought it was more prudent to play him at a lower level because they felt that he was physically ready to play the game, but something else was holding him back.

 

[L K]

But then by the same token, Reimer shouldn't be in the net.  He needs to wear a knee brace so he isn't 100%.

Sure, if we ignore the difference between the knee and the brain.

As to the general point of rehabbing from concussions it seems to me that the general way teams deal with it is keeping guys out of the line-up until they're ready. It seems like they may take a bit of practice time before returning full-bore but that's typically mentioned as being as much about getting them in game shape as anything. Practice hockey doesn't seem to be part of the protocol.

Anyways, this is all off-topic slightly. If rehab is the reason, I'm not going to argue its efficacy because I ain't a doctor. I just don't buy the idea that it's good for his development.

I can throw my hat in the ring on this one.    There actually can be some benefit to playing with the slower element of the AHL for Gardiner to get his timing back in shape, but if he is truly suffering from persistent cognitive impairments, it really doesn't matter whether he is playing in the NHL or AHL, it won't change anything. 

The only reasonable argument would be that the Leafs feel he is exposed too much and would be a liability on the ice.  I think that argument is pretty much laughable given that Kostka is playing regular minutes and Holzer has been found to be incompetent in more than a handful of games.

I do have to disagree that there isn't a distinction between physical reaction and mental reaction though.  The difference would be that his physical capabilities are there and that at times he would be showing his ability to rush the puck up the ice.  He would have points in the game where he could blow past defenders with his speed and dipsy-doodle the puck into the offensive zone.  If he is mentally slow, he wouldnt' be able to make those plays because his mind would be preventing him from anticipating where the opposition will play against him.

 

[Zee]

Apparently Gardiner's agent started a twitter frenzy with a one word hash tag #FreeJakeGardiner  Can the agent just not talk to Nonis quietly behind the scenes?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

This is being blown way out of proportion, I thought it was funny, he could have been much more pointed if he actually wanted to cause a controversy.

 

[bustaheims]

Apparently Gardiner's agent started a twitter frenzy with a one word hash tag #FreeJakeGardiner  Can the agent just not talk to Nonis quietly behind the scenes?

Agents shouldn't be allowed on twitter.

 

[pnjunction]

Hah it's funny but doesn't seem very professional

 

[Kin]

Apparently Gardiner's agent started a twitter frenzy with a one word hash tag #FreeJakeGardiner  Can the agent just not talk to Nonis quietly behind the scenes?

No reason to assume he hasn't.

 

[Zee]

This is being blown way out of proportion, I thought it was funny, he could have been much more pointed if he actually wanted to cause a controversy.

This is Toronto where hockey is #1 in the market, you don't make comments like that as a player agent even if it's tongue in cheek.  Not like he's saying it privately to someone, he's open tweeting it to everyone to shine attention on the fact his player is in the minors.  It can also be taken more than one way, does it mean "free him to play for the Leafs" or "trade him"?

Just as a point to that, Gardiner is now fielding questions from press about what his agent tweeted.  He shouldn't have put his player in this position, at best it was ignorant of the agent thinking it wouldn't cause any controversy even if he was making a joke.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

This is being blown way out of proportion, I thought it was funny, he could have been much more pointed if he actually wanted to cause a controversy.

This is Toronto where hockey is #1 in the market, you don't make comments like that as a player agent even if it's tongue in cheek.  Not like he's saying it privately to someone, he's open tweeting it to everyone to shine attention on the fact his player is in the minors.  It can also be taken more than one way, does it mean "free him to play for the Leafs" or "trade him"?

Just as a point to that, Gardiner is now fielding questions from press about what his agent tweeted.  He shouldn't have put his player in this position, at best it was ignorant of the agent thinking it wouldn't cause any controversy even if he was making a joke.

LET'S GO BLUE JAYS

 

[Zee]

This is being blown way out of proportion, I thought it was funny, he could have been much more pointed if he actually wanted to cause a controversy.

This is Toronto where hockey is #1 in the market, you don't make comments like that as a player agent even if it's tongue in cheek.  Not like he's saying it privately to someone, he's open tweeting it to everyone to shine attention on the fact his player is in the minors.  It can also be taken more than one way, does it mean "free him to play for the Leafs" or "trade him"?

Just as a point to that, Gardiner is now fielding questions from press about what his agent tweeted.  He shouldn't have put his player in this position, at best it was ignorant of the agent thinking it wouldn't cause any controversy even if he was making a joke.

LET'S GO BLUE JAYS

  Sad that they were chanting that in Winnipeg too.