Jets @ Leafs - Nov. 4th, 7:00pm - SN, TSN 1050

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm not saying it would have worked. I'm saying it didn't have a chance to work. If Gardiner pivots and gets his stick down he might block the pass.

That really wasn't an option though. Gardiner had just gotten turned around because of the crossover, and Wheeler was in full stride. There was no catching up to him. So yes, it was a desperation play, but it was the only one available too.

 

[Bender]

No it's not. No coach worth his/her salt at any level will ever tell you to leave your feet. The moment you leave your feet you take yourself out of the play.

And, yet, defencemen have been doing exactly that on 2 on 1s for generations. What defencemen are taught to do in that situation is to take away the pass and allow the goalie to focus on the shooter. Gardiner attempted to do that in the same ways hundreds of defencemen have in the past. More often than not, that move successfully removes the passing option. This time it didn't. It wasn't a bad play, nor did he play it poorly. It just didn't work out for him.

Defencemen are taught to use their stick and skates to block the pass. They are also taught to take either the shooter or the open man, not just to block the pass. They are also taught to be ready to clear rebounds, which is pretty impossible to do laying on your face.

The fact that defencemen drop to the ice often doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's what happens when you panic. These guys are pros but it doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.

I'm pretty sure Gardiner knows how to clear rebounds when the situation calls for it. This was not one of those situations.

What if they didn't score on the original shot? What's Gardiner going to do laying on his butt?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas. It's a desperation play that required a desperation move. It didn't work out but it wasn't a bad idea.

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

Plays like this make me laugh, if Kadri and JVR had scored on a 2-on-1 just like that nobody would be talking about how awful the defensive player played it. Wheeler and Burmistrov both made incredible plays there, plays that only happened because Burmi was able to sneak out of the penalty box. Give those guys credit for what they pulled off.

It's also worth noting that that would have been a breakaway for Burmistrov if it wasn't for Gardiner properly angling him away from the centre, but then he had to deal with a spin, a crossover, and a give-and-go. That goal was basically a work of art.

 

[showmethemoneyman]

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

Plays like this make me laugh, if Kadri and JVR had scored on a 2-on-1 just like that nobody would be talking about how awful the defensive player played it. Wheeler and Burmistrov both made incredible plays there, plays that only happened because Burmi was able to sneak out of the penalty box. Give those guys credit for what they pulled off.

It's also worth noting that that would have been a breakaway for Burmistrov if it wasn't for Gardiner properly angling him away from the centre, but then he had to deal with a spin, a crossover, and a give-and-go. That goal was basically a work of art.

how was BURMISTROV able to sneak out of the penalty box , its not like there is a goalie yelling and banging his stick, my issue is with gards being slow to fall back to defend not with his decision as to taking away the pass

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

Plays like this make me laugh, if Kadri and JVR had scored on a 2-on-1 just like that nobody would be talking about how awful the defensive player played it. Wheeler and Burmistrov both made incredible plays there, plays that only happened because Burmi was able to sneak out of the penalty box. Give those guys credit for what they pulled off.

It's also worth noting that that would have been a breakaway for Burmistrov if it wasn't for Gardiner properly angling him away from the centre, but then he had to deal with a spin, a crossover, and a give-and-go. That goal was basically a work of art.

I didn't watch the game, but then was compelled to watch the highlights based on the discussion about a supposedly brutal play by Gardiner.  After seeing what turns out to be the goal in question, I honestly thought the discussion must have been about some other goal rather than the actual one because I couldn't see this egregious error in judgment and play by Gardiner.  I still don't see it.

 

[bustaheims]

how was BURMISTROV able to sneak out of the penalty box , its not like there is a goalie yelling and banging his stick, my issue is with gards being slow to fall back to defend not with his decision as to taking away the pass

If Gardiner was slow to fall back, it would have been a clear breakaway or a 2 on 0. The Jets got control of the puck as the penalty was ending. Was Gardiner supposed to fall back into a defensive position while his team controlled the puck in the offensive end? This wasn't a matter of anyone not knowing the penalty was ending, it was that the timing worked out perfectly for Winnipeg. The rest of the team was slow in getting into defensive position, but Gardiner was not. He was the only one who reacted quickly enough to have an impact on the play.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

how was BURMISTROV able to sneak out of the penalty box , its not like there is a goalie yelling and banging his stick, my issue is with gards being slow to fall back to defend not with his decision as to taking away the pass

The Leafs play a 4-man powerplay unit which often results in a 1-3-1 set-up where the middle set of forwards plays deeper in the offensive zone than most. That leaves just the one defenceman to cover a lot of ice by the blueline. JVR had possession of the puck and tried to make a play to the net that cost him possession. A slap-pass and split-second later Burmistrov had the puck on his stick. The Jets got incredibly lucky in regards to how perfect the timing of that worked out. But Gardiner can't just abandon the powerplay set-up when the Leafs have possession because the PP is about to end.

For anyone who hasn't seen the goal, or needs to see it again, here it is: http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=865118

 

[Bullfrog]

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

Plays like this make me laugh, if Kadri and JVR had scored on a 2-on-1 just like that nobody would be talking about how awful the defensive player played it. Wheeler and Burmistrov both made incredible plays there, plays that only happened because Burmi was able to sneak out of the penalty box. Give those guys credit for what they pulled off.

It's also worth noting that that would have been a breakaway for Burmistrov if it wasn't for Gardiner properly angling him away from the centre, but then he had to deal with a spin, a crossover, and a give-and-go. That goal was basically a work of art.

I didn't watch the game, but then was compelled to watch the highlights based on the discussion about a supposedly brutal play by Gardiner.  After seeing what turns out to be the goal in question, I honestly thought the discussion must have been about some other goal rather than the actual one because I couldn't see this egregious error in judgment and play by Gardiner.  I still don't see it.

I just did the same. And my response is: seriously, this is what's being debated? As Johnson says in the clip, "Gardiner had no chance." If there's some fault, you could possibly say he went down a fraction of a second too early. But that's being awfully picky.

 

[bustaheims]

I just did the same. And my response is: seriously, this is what's being debated? As Johnson says in the clip, "Gardiner had no chance." If there's some fault, you could possibly say he went down a fraction of a second too early. But that's being awfully picky.

Basically. His timing was off, so that impacted his execution. The only other argument that you might be able to make is that Gardiner should have stuck with Burmistrov after the first pass, but he tried to stay in the middle to prevent the pass and prevent Wheeler from being able to cut in front - which is why defencemen generally stay in the middle of a 2 on 1 - so, even that argument isn't entirely valid.

 

[Highlander]

Basically the shot cam of the top of the circle on the right side, it was bound to carom on the angle that would take it directly to the penalty box.  Perhaps the boys should be thinking about how much time is left on the clock and decide to take a shot or work the puck to another angle. Gardiner tried his best.

 

[TML fan]

No it's not. No coach worth his/her salt at any level will ever tell you to leave your feet. The moment you leave your feet you take yourself out of the play.

And, yet, defencemen have been doing exactly that on 2 on 1s for generations. What defencemen are taught to do in that situation is to take away the pass and allow the goalie to focus on the shooter. Gardiner attempted to do that in the same ways hundreds of defencemen have in the past. More often than not, that move successfully removes the passing option. This time it didn't. It wasn't a bad play, nor did he play it poorly. It just didn't work out for him.

Defencemen are taught to use their stick and skates to block the pass. They are also taught to take either the shooter or the open man, not just to block the pass. They are also taught to be ready to clear rebounds, which is pretty impossible to do laying on your face.

The fact that defencemen drop to the ice often doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. It's what happens when you panic. These guys are pros but it doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.

I'm pretty sure Gardiner knows how to clear rebounds when the situation calls for it. This was not one of those situations.

What if they didn't score on the original shot? What's Gardiner going to do laying on his butt?

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a Merry Christmas. It's a desperation play that required a desperation move. It didn't work out but it wasn't a bad idea.

Gardiner could do anything. If they scored you would still say he played it wrong.

No I wouldn't. I acknowledged 2 on 1s are difficult in my initial post. You're acting like I'm blaming him for the goal. I'm not. You're just jumping to defend Gardiner because around here, you simply can't criticize Jake Gardiner.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

No I wouldn't. I acknowledged 2 on 1s are difficult in my initial post. You're acting like I'm blaming him for the goal. I'm not. You're just jumping to defend Gardiner because around here, you simply can't criticize Jake Gardiner.

None of us Gardiner-fans exactly hide when Jake gives away the puck in his own end, we just argue that the good he does far exceeds the mistakes he makes. This play in question just doesn't contain a mistake. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Gardiner, if Polak made that exact same play to try and defend that 2-on-1 situation there'd be the same reaction.

All of this started when you said Gardiner should have stayed on his feet. We're saying that attempting to block the pass in the manner that he did was basically the only option available to him.

 

[TML fan]

I'm not saying it would have worked. I'm saying it didn't have a chance to work. If Gardiner pivots and gets his stick down he might block the pass.

That really wasn't an option though. Gardiner had just gotten turned around because of the crossover, and Wheeler was in full stride. There was no catching up to him. So yes, it was a desperation play, but it was the only one available too.

Wrong. Gardiner was never turned around. In fact it would have been EASIER for him to pivot and use his stick to block the pass.

Wheeler is a right handed shot so if Gardiner turns and takes the passing lane away, Wheeler has no angle to Burmistrov. He's forced to stop up (which Gardiner can react to) and make a backhand pass (less accurate), try to lift it over Gardiner's stick (slower and less accurate) or take a less than desirable shot (poor angle). Keep in mind too that Burmistrov is a left handed shot so any stopping up could upset Burmistrov's timing.

In a 2 on 1 in the NHL, they probably find a way to make it work regardless. Again, not the point. Like I said to Bender, I'm not blaming Gardiner for the goal, merely pointing out that he could have played it better. I want Gardiner to be a better defenceman. It's not going to happen just by talking myself into thinking he already is.

 

[TML fan]

No I wouldn't. I acknowledged 2 on 1s are difficult in my initial post. You're acting like I'm blaming him for the goal. I'm not. You're just jumping to defend Gardiner because around here, you simply can't criticize Jake Gardiner.

None of us Gardiner-fans exactly hide when Jake gives away the puck in his own end, we just argue that the good he does far exceeds the mistakes he makes. This play in question just doesn't contain a mistake. And it doesn't even have anything to do with Gardiner, if Polak made that exact same play to try and defend that 2-on-1 situation there'd be the same reaction.

All of this started when you said Gardiner should have stayed on his feet. We're saying that attempting to block the pass in the manner that he did was basically the only option available to him.

It has everything to do with Gardiner! If I had made the same criticism of Polak nobody would care because Polak isn't part of the team's future.

It wasn't the only option available. It was the worst option available.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The moment Gardiner puts on the breaks and turns around he's basically done for. He's lost momentum, he can't keep up with a steaking Wheeler. To say Gardiner "should have just used his stick" is like saying Player A "should have just scored, I mean come on it's so easy". It's just ignoring the entire situation that the player was in.

The more I watch that (and trust me, I've watched that loop over 100 times), the more I realize that Reimer should have done more to block the pass across. I mean, Wheeler didn't have a good angle to shoot the puck from (thanks to the unidentified defenceman) so the pass was his only option. And Reimer didn't have a chance at stopping the shot if/when the pass went across, so blocking it before it got to Burmi was the best option available to him.

 

[TML fan]

I can't talk to you if you can watch that clip and tell me honestly that Gardiner at any point got turned around. He's with Wheeler the whole time and is actually in GOOD position until he takes himself out of the play. Also, he's pretty obviously not aware of where Burmistrov is or the fact that he's a left handed shot.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I can't talk to you if you can watch that clip and tell me honestly that Gardiner at any point got turned around. He's with Wheeler the whole time and is actually in GOOD position until he takes himself out of the play.

My only explanation for this is that you don't know which one Wheeler and Gardiner are.

 

[TML fan]

I can't talk to you if you can watch that clip and tell me honestly that Gardiner at any point got turned around. He's with Wheeler the whole time and is actually in GOOD position until he takes himself out of the play.

My only explanation for this is that you don't know which one Wheeler and Gardiner are.

Its probably that you actually have no idea what you're talking about. I'm glad you posted the clip though. It's a quick way to relive just how badly Gardiner played it.

 

[bustaheims]

I can't talk to you if you can watch that clip and tell me honestly that Gardiner at any point got turned around. He's with Wheeler the whole time and is actually in GOOD position until he takes himself out of the play.

My only explanation for this is that you don't know which one Wheeler and Gardiner are.

Or he's just straight up ignoring the fact that Gardiner went from facing the net to having his back to the net when he had to change directions to adjust to Burmistrov cutting across - and then realize Wheeler had joined the play and had to adjust to that.

 

[TML fan]

I can't talk to you if you can watch that clip and tell me honestly that Gardiner at any point got turned around. He's with Wheeler the whole time and is actually in GOOD position until he takes himself out of the play.

My only explanation for this is that you don't know which one Wheeler and Gardiner are.

Or he's just straight up ignoring the fact that Gardiner went from facing the net to having his back to the net when he had to change directions to adjust to Burmistrov cutting across - and then realize Wheeler had joined the play and had to adjust to that.

So, you're calling pivoting into the desired position for a defenceman to play an odd man rush "getting turned around"? Wow. Gardiner was actually playing it well right up until the end which, shockingly, is what I criticized him for.