Jian Ghomeshi
- Thread starter mc
- Start date
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Zee said:
I know someone who works very closely with him (I don't know the person super closely or anything) and I know in the immediate aftermath this person was posting Jian's facebook comments and being supportive. Don't think they had any idea really.
Heroic Shrimp
New member
I suspect it's fairly likely that Big Ear Teddy was actually Big Videocamera Teddy.
Kin
New member
mc said:
Nah. I think he really believed that because things were just allegations he could squeeze some money out of the company just so that things would go away quietly for them. Now that more and more women are coming forward and attaching their names to similar allegations I think the CBC is in a pretty good position to tell him to get bent.
Britishbulldog
Active member
I hate getting serious on a fun community hockey site but....
What bothers me about situations like this is the 'Live and Let Live' attitude most in society have. I strongly believe in freedom of speech and privacy. I also believe that my belief is not incongruous with the truth that some lines should not be crossed and require intervention.
After being on staff as well as a volunteer with marginalized people for over 25 years I have noticed that when people are victimized: 1) some don't even realize it as it has been happening to them all their lives, 2) some are ashamed to speak up because they feel responsible (in a twisted way) for what happened to them, 3) some are embarrassed to let people know that happened to them 4) some don't want to say anything because of the stigma attached with what has happened to them when they meet people, 5) some were threatened if they said anything and they had just cause to believe it would happen (a couple of years ago in Moncton we had a woman murdered by her companion after she left to get help). I could go on but I will leave some of the reasons out. I would like to share that almost all the victims were not able to break the cycle on their own for one reason or another without getting outside intervention.
The thing that freaks me out is that I am a classically trained musician and certified acoustics/sound engineer with no Psychology training and because I have had enough people confide in me over the last 25+ years that I can usually pick these victims out in a crowd. How much easier is it for someone who wants to find victims? How about someone who just wants to abuse a certain group of people and is looking to do it not even caring if the person is a previous victim or not?
People can never convince me that what is private is private. One young woman was being traumatized by her 3rd degree black belt husband and when we brought her to our offices (a converted house downtown) he threatened to kill the ED and went to get a shot gun. The ED had served time in Kingston and Dorchester Pen before taking over the not for profit and felt that this must be his time to meet his maker and refused to give up the woman and 2 little pre-school girls. Police were called, the man took off continuing to threaten us and the woman is still alive and has become a good friend to Susan and I.
With these allegations starting to gain some credibility, I join with hockeyfan1's sentiment and add that it is horrendous that this was so demeaning to women. This isn't to gang up on a scapegoat. This is to state that if someone actually receives pleasure from hurting others then they themselves are broken. If they can't genuinely recognize that truth and begin a journey of repair then society needs to be protected from them. I have seen people restored and never re-offend again though so I know that it can happen.
One of the keys I have seen that a lot of the victims and abusers are missing is real community with others which is not only good to help develop social skills but it also breeds accountability. Also I have noticed that people in a community usually don't want to invest the time and be inconvenienced to include people who are marginalized or obviously need help.
My hope is that Jian is able to get peace and expel the demons that would drive him to act this way. I hope that the women receive closure and that this doesn't become a media circus that misses some fundamental issues when it could be a fantastic opportunity to address typically taboo topics that many deal with. Fun and role playing is fun and role playing. Abuse is abuse. Consensual or not, they aren't the same.
What bothers me about situations like this is the 'Live and Let Live' attitude most in society have. I strongly believe in freedom of speech and privacy. I also believe that my belief is not incongruous with the truth that some lines should not be crossed and require intervention.
After being on staff as well as a volunteer with marginalized people for over 25 years I have noticed that when people are victimized: 1) some don't even realize it as it has been happening to them all their lives, 2) some are ashamed to speak up because they feel responsible (in a twisted way) for what happened to them, 3) some are embarrassed to let people know that happened to them 4) some don't want to say anything because of the stigma attached with what has happened to them when they meet people, 5) some were threatened if they said anything and they had just cause to believe it would happen (a couple of years ago in Moncton we had a woman murdered by her companion after she left to get help). I could go on but I will leave some of the reasons out. I would like to share that almost all the victims were not able to break the cycle on their own for one reason or another without getting outside intervention.
The thing that freaks me out is that I am a classically trained musician and certified acoustics/sound engineer with no Psychology training and because I have had enough people confide in me over the last 25+ years that I can usually pick these victims out in a crowd. How much easier is it for someone who wants to find victims? How about someone who just wants to abuse a certain group of people and is looking to do it not even caring if the person is a previous victim or not?
People can never convince me that what is private is private. One young woman was being traumatized by her 3rd degree black belt husband and when we brought her to our offices (a converted house downtown) he threatened to kill the ED and went to get a shot gun. The ED had served time in Kingston and Dorchester Pen before taking over the not for profit and felt that this must be his time to meet his maker and refused to give up the woman and 2 little pre-school girls. Police were called, the man took off continuing to threaten us and the woman is still alive and has become a good friend to Susan and I.
With these allegations starting to gain some credibility, I join with hockeyfan1's sentiment and add that it is horrendous that this was so demeaning to women. This isn't to gang up on a scapegoat. This is to state that if someone actually receives pleasure from hurting others then they themselves are broken. If they can't genuinely recognize that truth and begin a journey of repair then society needs to be protected from them. I have seen people restored and never re-offend again though so I know that it can happen.
One of the keys I have seen that a lot of the victims and abusers are missing is real community with others which is not only good to help develop social skills but it also breeds accountability. Also I have noticed that people in a community usually don't want to invest the time and be inconvenienced to include people who are marginalized or obviously need help.
My hope is that Jian is able to get peace and expel the demons that would drive him to act this way. I hope that the women receive closure and that this doesn't become a media circus that misses some fundamental issues when it could be a fantastic opportunity to address typically taboo topics that many deal with. Fun and role playing is fun and role playing. Abuse is abuse. Consensual or not, they aren't the same.
Highlander
Active member
Thanks for the post BBD, excellent thoughts and makes tremendous sense. I feel sorry for these women and the fact that this guy used his celebrity to take advantage of so many.
louisstamos
Active member
In the wake of #GamerGate too (which has been really, really ugly for those that may not have been following it), it firmly illustrates why a woman may not want to put herself in a public position when making a claim of sexual assault. With #GamerGate, any woman who has been a vocal critic of the sexism that exists in both video games themselves, as well as the gaming industry, has been harassed and even received death threats for their views.
When Jian first posted his Facebook post, you could see the dissent in some of the comments in support that these women were "liars" and "conspirators." With a charismatic and well-liked celebrity (at least, at the time), who knows what the response would have been if some of these women came forward non-anonymously (just look at the flak the author of the xoJane article got, and all she accused him of was being creepy and a bad date). Not to mention, many of these women have worked or currently work in media, which is a fairly "small" (i.e: word gets around) community, and may not have come forward because it could have ruined their careers/lives as they would have forever been known as the person who tried to bring down Jian Gomeshi.
I don't think any of the women who came forward anonymously deserve any flak, but I do strongly believe Lucy Decoutere deserves a lot of praise and support for actually attaching her name to this.
When Jian first posted his Facebook post, you could see the dissent in some of the comments in support that these women were "liars" and "conspirators." With a charismatic and well-liked celebrity (at least, at the time), who knows what the response would have been if some of these women came forward non-anonymously (just look at the flak the author of the xoJane article got, and all she accused him of was being creepy and a bad date). Not to mention, many of these women have worked or currently work in media, which is a fairly "small" (i.e: word gets around) community, and may not have come forward because it could have ruined their careers/lives as they would have forever been known as the person who tried to bring down Jian Gomeshi.
I don't think any of the women who came forward anonymously deserve any flak, but I do strongly believe Lucy Decoutere deserves a lot of praise and support for actually attaching her name to this.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
louisstamos said:
I don't know what exactly it was, but I just got a weird feeling reading that xoJane post.
Potvin29 said:
Ok, I'm not defending Ghomeshi's actions here, but the xoJane post sat with me a bit strangely.
Why would anyone assume someone else's sexual orientation like that? It's that assumption why she thought it wasn't a date when if it were a straight man I'd say that screams date to me. Why wasn't she up front about it when she knew he got the wrong idea? Why didn't she just leave after he got touchy? His actions are still very deplorable though.
At the same time he probably would've done whatever he wanted in the end if Lucy's account is true (which seems like it is). "Come on over!" *subtext: so I can beat you in the face.
bustaheims
Active member
Potvin29 said:
It certainly gave the impression that he was a little . . . ummm . . . date rapey.
pnjunction
New member
louisstamos said:
Oh boy this is leaking everywhere isn't it. So because trolls send people threats, they can't be criticized and the concerns of a much larger group can be written off? I support gamergate and don't harass or send threats or condone such behaviour.
It's not even about sexism, certain people have just injected that into the mess because that is their schtick. It's about how much of the gaming press is corrupt agenda-pushing garbage and we deserve better, the constant focus on trolls is a deflection from this from that same press. Gamergate supporters have received anonymous threats too (one guy got a syringe in the mail, another was told his family would be killed and he'd be left to mourn them) but they're not relevant to the discussion either.
There is even proof that some of the same trolls have been sending threats to both sides to stir things up, I don't know why people (on either side) think the actions of trolls should be allowed to dominate the discourse.
Kin
New member
Britishbulldog said:
I don't entirely follow. Are you saying that what bothers you is that people in our society turn a blind eye to domestic violence or that people tend to have a "what two consenting adults do in their bedroom is none of my business" attitude towards sex?
Because it's becoming pretty clear that this isn't a story about consensual stuff or even a kinky relationship that went too far. It seems like he just liked hitting women he'd just met.
Kin
New member
louisstamos said:
It's an excellent point and I think it's why when stories like these emerge it's really best not to start second guessing the motives of the people involved too closely with questions like "why didn't they go to the police in a timely fashion" or "why didn't they make a bigger stink about this sooner". Unless you're in someone's shoes I think it's just about to criticize their behaviour after something like this and I don't think it will always conform to what might seem like the obvious thing to do from a neutral party's perspective.
pnjunction
New member
Nik the Trik said:
I agree but at the same time I think if someone releases a public article about their bad date that is open to criticism. That's the forum where someone has chosen to air their complaints/concerns and everybody has a right to comment on it. That's why all the comparisons of the alleged victims of violence to the bad date article are not valid in my opinion. There are publication bans and so on and to pretend that criticism someone receives for airing a bad date is equivalent harassing someone for reporting violent abuse is far-fetched to say the least.
louisstamos
Active member
pnjunction said:
Not that I want to divert too much because a) this is about Jian Ghomeshi and b) like I said, #GamerGate has been really, really ugly - but it kind of connects. Yes, many people who are Trolls/MRA/etc used #GamerGate as a platform to spew misogyny and harrassment, whereas the bulk of the movement are concerned about Ethics in Journalism (granted, started because of a woman's sexual activity), the focus tends to be on the former, because they get the biggest reaction.
Let's say one of these women in the Ghomeshi came out nearly immediately, decided to press charges and accuse him of battery. The amount of flak they would get from people doubting her, accusing her of being a money grabber, etc because he is a celebrity (which I think he tried to frame with his first Facebook post) might get one to second guess themselves in doing so, but definitely those who would come to the defense by dragging the victim's name through the mud (past sexual experiences, etc), as well as harassment and potentially threats from those who support Ghomeshi unequivocally - for something for the most part, isn't really successful in courts.
(This one hits a little bit close to home for me, as I have a very good friend who was raped outside of a subway station, and the perpetrator got off simply because the crown couldn't prove that there WASN'T consent, despite the fact she called the police right after the incident...because she was inebriated, and he was deaf, it was "theoretically possible" she could have consented to it)
Kin
New member
pnjunction said:
Well, for starters, the post of mine you're referring to was really about the women mentioned in the Star article and not the xoJane article.
Even so though, while anything that's in the ether is subject to criticism(a term that is probably used a bit too generously when it comes to internet commenting) I still think that it's unfair to question someone's behaviour too harshly when it comes to the kind of thing we're talking about. Despite you wanting to pretty dismissively describe what happened to that writer as a "bad date" it's pretty clear now that she was describing was some pretty troubling behaviour that was worth taking seriously and that affected her quite a bit. Unless you've been in a similar situation I don't think it's entirely fair to presume you'd know how you'd act.
Britishbulldog
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Thanks for asking Nik. I really want to be clear and realize that what I wrote was a bit fuzzy. I have a issue with people in society that turn a blind eye to domestic violence or abuse of any kind. It is more convenient and less messy to simply ignore what is happening.
Regarding sex, I believe that it is awesome that unlike animals, mankind was created to be able to enjoy it simply for pleasure and not just to pro-create. I hope all couples enjoy it immensely in the privacy of their bedroom without me ever knowing what they do.