Kessel traded to Penguins
- Thread starter GhostofPotvin29
- Start date
L K said:
It's New Jersey's pick, per the release on Pittsburgh's website.
L K
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
Yeah, it's pretty much imperative that the Leafs get one more year of top draft pick. They could really use a good shot at Auston Matthews or potentially a top defenseman out of the draft to complement Marner and Nylander. If you have that framework to build around with the plethora of other prospects the team has I would feel comfortable making a slow climb up the standings from that point.
Peter D.
Moderator
I'm torn on this deal. At first glance, the return seems underwhelming. I think trading Kessel in this rebuild was needed, but I'd rather have seen it done last week at the draft. And since that didn't occur, I would have preferred the Leafs took more time to get this done. But I can't speak as to what the other offers were or if the Leafs felt this was the best they were going to be offered, both now and later.
Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel. I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt). It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.
Personally, I am confused as to why management and Babcock would rather give it a go with Phaneuf than have given it a try with Kessel. I'd trade Phaneuf a hundred times over before trading Phil (although ideally both would be dealt). It's not easy finding Kessels and their production.
Kin
New member
Peter D. said:
I mean, is this really a situation though where you wouldn't give someone like Babcock the benefit of the doubt? I mean, if he thinks Phaneuf can be an effective player in the system he wants to bring in but not so much Kessel...isn't that why they're paying him the 50 million bucks? To make those calls?
Deebo said:
Naturally, I would have done what they did: put him up for auction and take the best bid. And I would have eaten some salary because I felt as the Pens did that he was overpaid - to help get some talent back. But he wouldn't have played for my team in 2015-16 after what he did this season. I have zero tolerance for quitters.
bustaheims
Active member
Peter D. said:
My guess is that it has a lot to do with value. Kessel's value isn't going to change all that much. Teams know what he is and this past season really wouldn't have had the impact on his value that some people are placing on it. They know he's better than that. They understand what happened with the team last season, and put the majority of the blame for his lower production on that. They also likely don't buy the attitude issues that the fans have. They have access to people who have been directly involved with him and have a much better picture of who he actually is as a person.
With Phaneuf, it's been a couple seasons now where he's been underwhelming and has seen his production dip and his skating ability get called into question. His value is pretty low right now - probably near the bottom of where it could be. A good season under Babcock and he becomes much more tradable and the return on moving him becomes more valuable. He's a tough sell right now. A bad year won't change that much, but a good year definitely could.
Dealing from a position of weakness and an off year I'm not quite sure what some of you expected.
I'm disappointed that he's gone as I thought later year was just a bad year all around, and I don't think truly indicative of Kessel's true talent.
But the writing was on the wall and they decided they're moving on from Kessel. I guess they made the best out of a bad situation.
If Kessel doesn't light it up next year in Pittsburgh then there truly was something wrong with him.
I'm disappointed that he's gone as I thought later year was just a bad year all around, and I don't think truly indicative of Kessel's true talent.
But the writing was on the wall and they decided they're moving on from Kessel. I guess they made the best out of a bad situation.
If Kessel doesn't light it up next year in Pittsburgh then there truly was something wrong with him.
Captain Canuck
New member
Peter D. said:
It was more about getting rid of Kessel's negative influence on the team. He flat out quit when push came to shove.
Babcock does think Phaneuf can be salvaged, but both he and Shanahan were in agreement that Kessel had to go.
This was more a deal for the locker room than it was for the ice.
disco
New member
Hey Guys...
At first I was like, hmmm... wished it could've been more. But the more I analyze it, this is what you do in a hard-core rebuild. It's encouraging. Some points from all the Hockey-Central banter:
1) The deal makes the Leafs worse in the short-term - not a problem and helps with pick position. Kessel staying = more goals and wins.
2) It's ALL ABOUT PICKS and PROSPECTS for the next few years. Flip your assets for them and move on. That's a rebuild.
3) In 5-8 years when Leafs are consistantly (hopefully) at the door contending for Cups Phil is on the downside of his career.
4) The $1.25 retained is negligible with the cap consistently rising, and when it's time to pay their high end picks/superstars, it'll all be off the books.
... so I say good job management. Everyone wants a home-run for their traded talent these days, but it's really becoming a rarity.
At first I was like, hmmm... wished it could've been more. But the more I analyze it, this is what you do in a hard-core rebuild. It's encouraging. Some points from all the Hockey-Central banter:
1) The deal makes the Leafs worse in the short-term - not a problem and helps with pick position. Kessel staying = more goals and wins.
2) It's ALL ABOUT PICKS and PROSPECTS for the next few years. Flip your assets for them and move on. That's a rebuild.
3) In 5-8 years when Leafs are consistantly (hopefully) at the door contending for Cups Phil is on the downside of his career.
4) The $1.25 retained is negligible with the cap consistently rising, and when it's time to pay their high end picks/superstars, it'll all be off the books.
... so I say good job management. Everyone wants a home-run for their traded talent these days, but it's really becoming a rarity.
Peter D.
Moderator
Nik the Trik said:
Sure. That's fine and fair.
As much as I agree with the comments that Kessel quit and the inference that he was a locker room cancer, I don't think Phaneuf has faired much better in his role. A lot of my opinion has to do with talent, ability and value, and that's why I'd rather have seen if Babcock could work into shaping the 35-goal scorer than the d-man who's been rather ordinary in his time as a Leaf.
bustaheims said:
Top flight? I don't know about that. Decent prospect? That describes him better to me. He's not a sure fire NHLer - in part due to his size. He didn't crack HF's top 50 prospects. He was about 3rd best Pens prospect and he's about that on the Leafs.
There's a fair chance that they don't get a top 6 forward/top 4 dman in return for Kessel.
Nik the Trik said:
Maybe not strictly speaking due to the teardown, but they also landed Zach Hyman (signed a two-year deal today) from Florida for McKegg. A primary reason that they got him was because he thinks he is ready to play in the NHL and Florida didn't agree - the Leafs need people to fill spots so they took him and told him he would play.
Kin
New member
Peter D. said:
But I think that speaks to what Busta said. Phaneuf is kind of low risk in that, if he has a good year next year, it can really only benefit the Leafs. He's not a good enough player to really change the fortunes of the club.
There's been a few people saying that the Leafs could have held onto Kessel, he could have had a big year that raised his value and they would have made a strong run for the bottom of the league for the draft pick but look at this year's draft. Look at the bottom 6 teams. Did any star forward on those teams have a particularly good year? Anywhere?
Probably the best year out of all of those players was Eberle who had the second worst point and goal totals of his career. Teams don't tank out and get those high picks having top of the league scorers on their rosters unless they're stunningly inept in all other areas like the Oilers have been in recent years. Keeping Kessel and hoping Kessel has a good year and that the Leafs are strong contenders for Matthews...that's really advocating trading Bernier and Kadri and Rielly and Gardiner because otherwise...the team's actually too good for that.
Look at Buffalo's roster this year. That's the aim.
mr grieves
New member
Nik the Trik said:
And yet -- if Shanahan saying Babcock wants to see some players under him before they move -- this seems to be the plan with Phaneuf, a player who's already older and has had more injuries (tho flukey ones). If this were managing the risk on the probable depreciation of an asset, they'd be consistent. This was, I think, Shanahan's desire to shake up the culture -- which isn't a move that often bespeaks intelligent management. On the other hand, that draft and those UFA signings. So, I dunno -- on balance, we're doing well. But that doesn't make this particular move good.
mr grieves
New member
cw said:
Though I think the implication that Kessel's a schizophrenic with a wonky valve is way off the mark, I'm glad that, though you're in favor of the move, you're not overselling the pieces they got back. In 5 years, Kessel could well still be scoring 70-80 points/season, and the Leafs might have a decent 2nd/3rd liner in Kapanen, a marginal NHLer in the late first, and not had the balls go there way in the Matthews lottery. There's certainly risk in the move.