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Kyle Dubas retrospective

azzurri63 said:
Holy. What did he have when he came in. He had nothing to do with Matthews, nothing to do with Marner, nothing to do with Willy. No brainer adding JT without giving anything up. There's your core 4 which he really didn't have anything to do with. Would JT have signed here without Kyle. Probably. I've eluded on this multiple times and I won't back down from it. All these guys excluding JT who's still on his original contract should have gotten a raise I'm not going to disagree. It's the money that was given out after their ELC's that was the starting point where he in my mind failed. These guys hadn't accomplished anything other than regular season success and awesome stats no doubt in the regular season but NO PLAYOFF success whatsoever and basically handcuffed in my opinion someway to balance out this teams roster. How many posts on here are guys not only me complaining about the bottom 6? Plus we squandered so many picks to win and yes that's what you do if you think you have a chance to win but none really worked out. Throw in that our farm system is absolutely crap due to that doesn't exactly have me screaming with excitement. It's so easy to see. Why don't we have someone in the minors who can step in and supply some offence? Why because there isn't anyone. Arn I won't say we don't have the most exciting players in Leaf history possibly but where has it gotten us. 100 point seasons are great. Making the playoffs is great. Watching Matthews pot 69 is great. Watching Marner and Nylander do their thing is great. Bottom line is what has it gotten us after the regular season? Sweet f all. I get ridiculed steady about being a Leaf fan. Sure most of you as well. Here all the jokes last cup in 67 etc etc etc. I wanna see this team win more than anyone but the way it was constructed it ain't happening. Only thing I see which is night and day better than years past and may prove me wrong is the goaltending. I'm hoping Stolarz especially can deliver. If he doesn't and they fold again this should and probably will be the last of this core.
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Agree with this post.

Dubas inherited Matthews, Nylander and Marner. Plus a team that made the playoffs twice already. He barely took it forward beyond that. And sold the future farm to crawl it an inch further.

Low expectations from fans will yield exactly that. Poor results. And that's the problem with this Toronto market. Someone like me will be jumping for joy if the team can win two rounds! Even one round is a generational event! That's what the mecca of hockey is satisfied with.

But my standards are even higher than those that become "apologists" for management that can barely win one round. "Dubas was a genuis......etc..etc...", and "can't blame him for .....blah blah blah".

Ballard knew the entire market is full of guys like us. He delivered shit, and the fans still come back in droves and pay money. Mistreated them, and they want it even more. Tease them with show ponies who can't win, but look fancy on the ice, and you can raise ticket prices and sell a ton of jerseys. That's Toronto hockey fans. They get what they deserve because they accept whatever pittance you toss their way. And the cash cow continued to print $$$.




"15,000 suckers are born every Leafs home game."

. - Harold Ballard, late 1970s.
 
Bullfrog said:
This point I agree with. It's really my only complaint about his tenure. He signed Marleau for too much then had to give away a 1st round pick to get rid of him. The trading picks is the only part I can complain about.
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Yup, that's a fair argument. And even on a lot of occasions you could see why the moves were made at the time. Indeed half the time it was exactly the kind of moves people were crying out for.

But "completely messed up the team" is utter bullshit hyperbole and over-reactive nonsense.
 
Ozzie said:
But my standards are even higher than those that become "apologists" for management that can barely win one round. "Dubas was a genuis......etc..etc...", and "can't blame him for .....blah blah blah".
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Find me one post here where anyone said anything close to this.
 
Joe S. said:
Find me one post here where anyone said anything close to this.
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I'm not referring specifically to here. I'm talking about Leaf fans in general over the past 5 decades.... including myself.

We put up with a lot of losing, come back for more, and hail mediocrity.

Over this half century, the players and coaches and managers and even ownership have changed. Only two constants have remained.... the market and the results. If a market thinks mediocrity is 'good' and acceptable, it's what shall be received, into the future.
 
In hindsight, I think what we see is that Dubas was/is a pretty middle of the pack GM. He made some good moves and some bad. He went back to the "they were a member of the Greyhounds" well too often, for sure, and had trouble identifying legit NHL starting goalies. His major deadline rental deals were mostly misses (ROR is the only one that really worked at any meaningful level) but his smaller rental moves and longer-term moves were generally on point. He mostly paid market rate for players, which isn't great, but he also rarely overpaid by any significant amount, which is good.

I get why some people were upset when he was let go/left - a number of people agree with his core philosophy and it felt like he was gearing up to make a bigger, more meaningful move to shake up the core, and it certainly felt (and still feels) like that might be what the team needs. But, at the end of the day, he was a little too comfortable moving out higher value draft picks for short term stop gaps than I would have liked, considering the state of the farm system, without any real success in the playoffs. That will ultimately be his legacy here - one of high potential without the results. It doesn't surprise me that he's struggling with many of the same issues in Pittsburgh. He still has plenty of time and room to grow, but, as it stands right now, he's just a pretty average front office guy.
 
Dubas like most GMs had good moves and bad ones. You are ultimately defined by success and the Leafs had lots of regular season success without a lot of playoff success. I do think that the division they play in has been part of the problem though for years and it's been a bit unfair to judge the Leafs playing in a division with Tampa/Boston/Florida over the last few years. The Atlantic division (*caveat for the COVID divisions) has won 3 of the last 6 Cups and 7 teams were in the Cup finals that play in the Atlantic over that time.

Tampa x 3, Florida x2, Boston x1, Montreal x1

I think that really don't get factored in enough for how much of a mess the division has been. The current playoff format has forced the team to be in a tough gauntlet right out of the gate despite being a consistent regular season team.

But it doesn't matter. They only won one round and Dubas did a poor job adapting to the necessary style of play to win in the postseason.

I don't think he's a bad GM, but he's absolutely more in the middling range. I do think we have to take into account that we don't know how much autonomy he had to make moves under Shanahan. Similarly he went to Pittsburgh and was told to try and make it work with their old core. Blaming Dubas for Pittsburgh being bad is dumb because the team should have been a rebuild. He chose to take on that job though so again, its on him for putting himself in that role.

So far I've actually been quite happy with Treiliving's job in Toronto. There are gripes with how the roster is constructed....I still don't understand why Reaves got the term length that he did...we havne't been able to find good depth scoring and the blueline is horribly missing a guy who can create offense, but I think he's done a good job working with the framework he has. His free agent signings have been fine but we also haven't seen him take on an important contract negotiation yet to see how he handles Marner/Tavares/Knies. He held tough with Robertson and I wonder if that was a contract that Dubas would have given more money to to try and sign earlier.
 
L K said:
Dubas like most GMs had good moves and bad ones. You are ultimately defined by success and the Leafs had lots of regular season success without a lot of playoff success. I do think that the division they play in has been part of the problem though for years and it's been a bit unfair to judge the Leafs playing in a division with Tampa/Boston/Florida over the last few years. The Atlantic division (*caveat for the COVID divisions) has won 3 of the last 6 Cups and 7 teams were in the Cup finals that play in the Atlantic over that time.

Tampa x 3, Florida x2, Boston x1, Montreal x1

I think that really don't get factored in enough for how much of a mess the division has been. The current playoff format has forced the team to be in a tough gauntlet right out of the gate despite being a consistent regular season team.

But it doesn't matter. They only won one round and Dubas did a poor job adapting to the necessary style of play to win in the postseason.

I don't think he's a bad GM, but he's absolutely more in the middling range. I do think we have to take into account that we don't know how much autonomy he had to make moves under Shanahan. Similarly he went to Pittsburgh and was told to try and make it work with their old core. Blaming Dubas for Pittsburgh being bad is dumb because the team should have been a rebuild. He chose to take on that job though so again, its on him for putting himself in that role.

So far I've actually been quite happy with Treiliving's job in Toronto. There are gripes with how the roster is constructed....I still don't understand why Reaves got the term length that he did...we havne't been able to find good depth scoring and the blueline is horribly missing a guy who can create offense, but I think he's done a good job working with the framework he has. His free agent signings have been fine but we also haven't seen him take on an important contract negotiation yet to see how he handles Marner/Tavares/Knies. He held tough with Robertson and I wonder if that was a contract that Dubas would have given more money to to try and sign earlier.
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LK I agree with you on the division part and although I'm not happy with our playoff success I make that point with friends etc. Leafs play in a tough division and this dumb format where we seem to play the same teams year after year needs to go. In past years in my opinion it's like a coin toss in the first round. These teams in our division are strong teams and in one round anyone can win. The 1st round losses against Mtl and Columbus were disgusting and inexcusable and that's what puts that doubt of this team getting it done with this core. It should have been dismantled already. They've had ample time and I've always said they don't have what it takes to win playoff hockey which is night and day compared to the reg season.
 
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Where I take exception is the ‘ruined’ narrative. I agree with the general sentiment that there was nothing special about Dubas. He wasn’t a genius nor was he an idiot.

What I’ll point to is that, in my opion, he didn’t make any franchise altering or back breaking moves (neither did Lamoriello) whereas every GM since Floyd Smith (which is was my history starting point) has.

For example:
Smith: kurvers for a 1st round pick
Fletcher: bringing Clark back
JFJ: rask for raycroft
Burke: Kessel trade
Nonis: Clarkson signing
Fletcher 2.0: Steen trade

Dubas and Lamoriello (who I’m no fan of) didn’t make anything close to the bonehead moves above.
 
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L K said:
Dubas like most GMs had good moves and bad ones. You are ultimately defined by success and the Leafs had lots of regular season success without a lot of playoff success. I do think that the division they play in has been part of the problem though for years and it's been a bit unfair to judge the Leafs playing in a division with Tampa/Boston/Florida over the last few years.

Tampa x 3, Florida x2, Boston x1
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And based on these matchups, I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that each of these series' were akin to a Conference Final rather than a 1st round playoff. Would we be talking about the Leafs' anemic playoff record had they succumbed to multiple game 7 Conference Finals? Obviously they have to win of these matchups, but I really think the division and new playoff rules has muddied, if not sullied, the narrative quite a bit.
 
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