groundskeeper willie
New member
Argued a little too vehemently against a big move the team recently made maybe?herman said:
Kypreos: PK Subban traded to Nashville for Shea Weber
- Thread starter GhostofPotvin29
- Start date
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/still-questions-answers-p-k-subban-trade/
Quick, someone make up some fancy stats that say Weber > Subban and Bergevin will probably give you a hockey ops job!
Also, I can't imagine how soul-crushing that would have been for Pfeffer. Not even to just get fired, but to pour your heart into trying to make a (completely reasonable) case for why trading Subban for Weber is absurd and having absolutely nobody listen to you.
Quick, someone make up some fancy stats that say Weber > Subban and Bergevin will probably give you a hockey ops job!
Also, I can't imagine how soul-crushing that would have been for Pfeffer. Not even to just get fired, but to pour your heart into trying to make a (completely reasonable) case for why trading Subban for Weber is absurd and having absolutely nobody listen to you.
herman
Well-known member
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/latest-news/2015/10/10/9492733/matt-pfeffer-elaborates-on-his-role-with-the-canadiens-habs-analytics-therrien-data-analyst
I don't think the Habs management team was really set up to be receptive to Pfeffer's work. The coaching staff only ever wanted executive summaries, and his lone voice wasn't cutting through the din of traditional intangibles.
I can see him getting picked up to join the Leafs' analytics squad, or Arizona.
It also really emphasizes the importance of having analytics buy-in at the executive level, where you have someone who can translate the stats and data conclusions into actionables at the executive and tactical level.
I don't think the Habs management team was really set up to be receptive to Pfeffer's work. The coaching staff only ever wanted executive summaries, and his lone voice wasn't cutting through the din of traditional intangibles.
I can see him getting picked up to join the Leafs' analytics squad, or Arizona.
It also really emphasizes the importance of having analytics buy-in at the executive level, where you have someone who can translate the stats and data conclusions into actionables at the executive and tactical level.
Kin
Active member
herman said:
I really think the only way that works is with a very clear hierarchical structure though. If you look at the franchises in sports who have really embraced analytics that way like the A's or Rockets it's because they have an executive at the top that has shaped the entire organization to their philosophy. Otherwise, analytics seem designed to just be an opinion among many.
Even a franchise that's invested heavily in analytics opens themselves up to disagreements within the analytics department. I'm sure Pfeffer made a compelling case, and I agree with him about the trade, but let's not pretend he was selling hard facts here.
I'm sure the Habs used Pfeffer in ways that helped improve their club, but I'm not exactly surprised that they decided to stick with the "hockey minds" when it came to making a decision of this magnitude. Especially if some of their reasons for trading him weren't exactly entirely hockey/on-ice related.
I mean, I wouldn't have been too surprised if the Leafs stat guys disagreed with how Shanahan viewed Kessel.
I mean, I wouldn't have been too surprised if the Leafs stat guys disagreed with how Shanahan viewed Kessel.
herman
Well-known member
Nik the Trik said:
I super agree with this.
The teams that seem to struggle with analytics (Edm, Col, Mtl, old Leafs) appeared to have misconceptions about what advanced analytics actually means; often they just hire one guy or one outfit and think the problem is largely solved/ignored.
In Pfeffer's case, it was, as CtB said, already decided due to off-ice stuff.
Kin
Active member
herman said:
There's no doubt that there are almost certainly going to be teams that will hire an analytics guy just to say they did and so they don't look behind the times but without actually paying much attention to what's said.
But that being said, I don't think anyone's quite cracked the implementation of analytics yet. I certainly don't know if it's the sort of thing that hiring more people helps. Creating a pool of data is helpful, I guess, but it doesn't strike me as something that provides exponential benefits the deeper it is.
herman
Well-known member
Nik the Trik said:
This level of analytics is still nascent for the NHL, so teams covet the advantageous knowledge as proprietary, and have locked up a lot of the pioneers to incubate and protect their work. Eventually, I hope to see it open back up again when all teams are on equal footing the way they are with box stats.
I don't think one person can cut it for an NHL team; there are just too many things to track and digest. I also don't think hiring a boatload of people would help either as that just muddies the water. I like what Dubas has done with a small, agile group, backed by a data crunching company that can pivot the data quickly for them to draw/test conclusions from.
Their work still needs to translate to the coaching level and what to instruct players to do though: puck carries vs dump & chase, forcing horizontal goaltender movement, etc. I see little evidence of known analytics being employed in Montreal's past couple of seasons on the ice.
It took Subban less than a day to become beloved in Nashville:
[tweet]754774411605975040[/tweet]
www.twitter.com/TomAWillis/status/754774411605975040
[tweet]754774411605975040[/tweet]
www.twitter.com/TomAWillis/status/754774411605975040
L K said:
Yeah I think that Nik brought this up already but a lot of people will probably be jumping on the Nashville bandwagon (myself included). That city and Subban do seem like a match made in heaven.
CarltonTheBear said:
It's weird that a team would have problems with Subban, and by team I mean players on that team. One story in Montreal is that there was a team party, and Subban was not invited to it. Also, when he showed up, he was asked to leave. He comes across as a likeable guy though, so I can't see how a team would want to ostracise him that much. Reminds me of the rumours surrounding Dion Phaneuf back when he was with the Flames.
Frank E
Active member
With businesses with dozens of employees working together in close proximity, sometimes you have personality conflicts that just don't seem to dissipate much over time...you hope they learn to get along, and most of the time they learn to.
Sometimes though you have to make a decision on someone for the better of the business moving forward simply because the circumstances can become a distraction that affects overall productivity. Those are tough decisions, especially when that someone is an otherwise productive member of the team.
I don't know if the Subban thing was or wasn't a issue like this, but I have a hard time thinking that they wanted to run a fan favourite, a local philanthropist, and a damn good hockey player out of town because the habs are a bunch of bigots.
Maybe he's a jerk, maybe not. Maybe there are a bunch of jerks on that team, or running that team, and maybe not. I don't care for the habs, and I'm not sure if they got better or worse with this transaction, but I still hope that Shea Weber doesn't get hammered in Montreal just because he was traded for Subban.
Sometimes though you have to make a decision on someone for the better of the business moving forward simply because the circumstances can become a distraction that affects overall productivity. Those are tough decisions, especially when that someone is an otherwise productive member of the team.
I don't know if the Subban thing was or wasn't a issue like this, but I have a hard time thinking that they wanted to run a fan favourite, a local philanthropist, and a damn good hockey player out of town because the habs are a bunch of bigots.
Maybe he's a jerk, maybe not. Maybe there are a bunch of jerks on that team, or running that team, and maybe not. I don't care for the habs, and I'm not sure if they got better or worse with this transaction, but I still hope that Shea Weber doesn't get hammered in Montreal just because he was traded for Subban.