BlueWhiteBlood
New member
Bonsixx said:
Still laughing.....
Leafs Acquired Jonathan Bernier
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Still laughing.....
Bonsixx said:
*slow clap*
I like the trade. The Leafs have acquired the player with the most potential in the trade, unless the Kings pull a rabbit out of the hat with the 2nd round pick. Reimer isn't being thrown on the scrap heap. He's now got legitimate competition from a young teammate. Luongo hasn't entered the picture, nor will he.
Even if Bernier doesn't pan out, it's not like Rask is going the other way. Trades are always a gamble, but I'm ok with this one.
Even if Bernier doesn't pan out, it's not like Rask is going the other way. Trades are always a gamble, but I'm ok with this one.
Things I learned in this thread:
Reimer is a vezina candidate right now and will continue to be
Frattin will lead the Kings in scoring every year
Bernier is a second rate prospect
Kings will draft McDavid with second round pick.
The Reimer I watched this year was good but far from great. The Frattin I watched is a borderline NHL'er who occasionally puts a good run of games together and sometimes hits. The Bernier I have watched is very consistant and has shown that he really deserves a chance to compete for a starting job.
So I think we gave up nothing for a chance at something. What am I missing??
Reimer is a vezina candidate right now and will continue to be
Frattin will lead the Kings in scoring every year
Bernier is a second rate prospect
Kings will draft McDavid with second round pick.
The Reimer I watched this year was good but far from great. The Frattin I watched is a borderline NHL'er who occasionally puts a good run of games together and sometimes hits. The Bernier I have watched is very consistant and has shown that he really deserves a chance to compete for a starting job.
So I think we gave up nothing for a chance at something. What am I missing??
KoHo
New member
After an afternoon to ponder the trade, some initial thoughts:
1. Frattin is a player a lot of fans were high on. People forget, he's not exactly a prospect at 25. He couldn't make the team out of training camp, and played streaky when he finally did come up to the big club. He scored 13 points in 25 games, a 43 point pace over a full season. We can now fill in his roster spot with someone better. Frattin may come back to haunt us, but they said the same thing about Viktor Stalberg.
2. Scrivens played decently enough as Reimer's backup, though I understand the need to upgrade considering he probably wouldn't been good enough if Reimer (a goalie with an injury history) got injured or faltered again. Behind a proven stud like Quick, I'm sure Scrivens will be fine. His wife tweeted they're moving "back home" to LA, and Scrivens seemed like a really nice young guy, so I'm happy for him. (though I'm not sure how "happy" he can be stuck playing behind one of the best goalies in the league).
3. Although I don't consider Frattin and Scrivens to be huge losses, and Nikolai Kulemin is the ONLY NHL player the Leafs have drafted in the 2nd round over the last 22 drafts (seriously look it up), what gets me about this trade is we used up assets to upgrade at a position that didn't need upgrading. Reimer is fine as a starter, and we could have brought in a better backup than Scrivens through free agency or a cheaper trade. The assets we gave up for unnecessary Bernier could have been parlayed to upgrade at a real area of need, like the defense.
4. Bernier wasn't brought in to be the backup. At the very least, he's expected to split time with Reimer or challenge for the starting job. Bernier's SV% was about the same as Reimer's this season, and that was behind LA's solid defense. The problem here is we don't know if Bernier is an upgrade over Reimer. He might not be. So why did we give up three assets for a player who could just end up being the backup?
1. Frattin is a player a lot of fans were high on. People forget, he's not exactly a prospect at 25. He couldn't make the team out of training camp, and played streaky when he finally did come up to the big club. He scored 13 points in 25 games, a 43 point pace over a full season. We can now fill in his roster spot with someone better. Frattin may come back to haunt us, but they said the same thing about Viktor Stalberg.
2. Scrivens played decently enough as Reimer's backup, though I understand the need to upgrade considering he probably wouldn't been good enough if Reimer (a goalie with an injury history) got injured or faltered again. Behind a proven stud like Quick, I'm sure Scrivens will be fine. His wife tweeted they're moving "back home" to LA, and Scrivens seemed like a really nice young guy, so I'm happy for him. (though I'm not sure how "happy" he can be stuck playing behind one of the best goalies in the league).
3. Although I don't consider Frattin and Scrivens to be huge losses, and Nikolai Kulemin is the ONLY NHL player the Leafs have drafted in the 2nd round over the last 22 drafts (seriously look it up), what gets me about this trade is we used up assets to upgrade at a position that didn't need upgrading. Reimer is fine as a starter, and we could have brought in a better backup than Scrivens through free agency or a cheaper trade. The assets we gave up for unnecessary Bernier could have been parlayed to upgrade at a real area of need, like the defense.
4. Bernier wasn't brought in to be the backup. At the very least, he's expected to split time with Reimer or challenge for the starting job. Bernier's SV% was about the same as Reimer's this season, and that was behind LA's solid defense. The problem here is we don't know if Bernier is an upgrade over Reimer. He might not be. So why did we give up three assets for a player who could just end up being the backup?
KoHo
New member
Nik the Trik said:
Stajan and Pillar aren't on wikipedia's list of Leafs draft picks, a tell-tale lesson in not using wikipedia as a truly accurate information source.
So important that we had to give up three assets for it? The conventional way is, of course, bringing in a backup goalie on the cheap. This deal boils down whether you think Reimer is ready and capable to be a full-fledged #1 over an 82 game season. If you don't, this is probably a good trade.Nik the Trik said:
Kin
New member
KoHo said:
Well, yeah. I mean, most people would agree that a team's goalie is the most important position and if you plan on using a guy for 30 games then you're talking about someone who's playing the most important position for, what, almost 40% of your season.
KoHo said:
I don't think it divides that neatly. I like the trade and think Reimer's absolutely capable of being a #1 goalie. I just don't think the Leafs should put all of their eggs in that one basket. I'd actually kind of flip that where I think the only way to look at Bernier as a superfluous addition is if you're of the belief that Reimer isn't just capable of being a top-flight #1 goalie for 65 games next year but that it's a deadbolted certainty that he will be for years to come. And, with all due respect to anyone who might feel that way, that point of view would have just about nothing in the way of supporting evidence.
mr grieves
New member
Nik the Trik said:
I think you might've been able to trick someone into thinking Frattin was a dime...
But mostly, yeah. There's nothing going to LA that could've helped get a top-line center. And they are nothing if not replaceable parts.
My only, and rather slight, concern with the trade has to do with the team shedding so many middle-6 forwards so quickly: Komarov, MacArthur, now Frattin... The wings suddenly seem pretty thin. Each is a player I like for the price (or, in MacA's case, price I think he'll get: $3.5-3.75m), two of them are reliable contributors in their way. Hope Nonis has some UFA gems targeted.
The broader/ philosophical concern is this: if all Bernier turns out to be is an improvement to our 3.13GAA/.902SV% back-up goalie at a higher cap hit (plus the $500,000 salary the Leafs are taking on -- so, nearly Scrivens's hit just there) for a competent depth winger and pick... well, it'll be reasonable to wonder why that wasn't just found on the UFA market. Though they wouldn't work in a trade for a top-line center or top-pairing Dman, they could've been used for something not so readily available for no assets.
Captain Canuck
New member
This trade gives the Leafs 2 legit goalies who will challenge each other for the #1 spot, fill in capably if the other goes down to injury and even makes us a little bit younger at the position. I was among those who wanted to keep the Reimer-Scrivens tandem past the trade deadline and ride them through the playoffs. I believe Reimer did his part, while Scrivens fell short as evidenced by his sub .500 record and the teams lack of faith in him when Reimer went down with injuries during the season. We weren't going to get a goalie anywhere near the talent of Bernier as a free agent or on the waiver wire this summer so those people need to give their head a shake.
This trade isn't about a "backup" goalie its about having 2 solid goalies who will push each other for playing time every night and are BOTH capable of being a #1 in this league. Like I said that wasn't something we had in this organization prior to todays trade.
Yeah the forwards and D need some work, but one thing at a time. You build from the net out and the Leafs have taken an important step.
This trade isn't about a "backup" goalie its about having 2 solid goalies who will push each other for playing time every night and are BOTH capable of being a #1 in this league. Like I said that wasn't something we had in this organization prior to todays trade.
Yeah the forwards and D need some work, but one thing at a time. You build from the net out and the Leafs have taken an important step.
going back to the sweat lodge now...leafplasma
New member
The timing of this deal is just odd to me. Reimer has a great season, Scrivens performs well as a rookie backup. I am ok with the price we paid though and you can never have too much goaltending depth. I also think that we can certainly deal one of these guys away to recoup the assets lost and then some in a year or two. Scrivens wasn't being used much at the tail end of last season and will be used even less in LA, 10 starts tops.
mr grieves
New member
Captain Canuck said:
My guess is those who aren't enthusiastic about this trade have doubt about whether Bernier really is that (great stats... but over 62 games... and on the Stanley Cup champions...) or, if he is, why a team would really need 2 goalies "pushing each other for playing time." Does that really improve goalies' performances? More than -- I don't know -- an actual top-four defenseman who can both clear the crease and make a decent first pass? Depth forwards who can cycle away in the opposition's end and each up time?
The "tandem" thing always sounded to me sort of like something a management consultant or producer behind Celebrity Apprentice would believe...
And if the tandem doesn't really appeal and all you want is a back-up better than Scrivens, that surely can be had on the UFA market for the cost of no assets.
Propellertop
New member
I think Frattin is replaceable and whether Ben Scrivens turns out to be more of a Pogge or a Rask is going to determine the ultimate 'good or bad' of this deal but the 2nd rounder hurts a bit for acquiring a backup goalie with some experience. I was more concerned up front that between the pipes and with the current cap, I can't see us really having the room to put us in a position to be much better than we were this year.
J
Jalili
Guest
The more I think about this deal, the more I like it.
We made a pretty good upgrade in net, and a Bernier/Reimer tandem pretty much guarantees us a long-term starter.
I liked Frattin, and it seems that most people here did as well, but the likelihood of Bernier becoming a starter is higher than Frattin becoming a top 6 forward.
We made a pretty good upgrade in net, and a Bernier/Reimer tandem pretty much guarantees us a long-term starter.
I liked Frattin, and it seems that most people here did as well, but the likelihood of Bernier becoming a starter is higher than Frattin becoming a top 6 forward.
Champ Kind
New member
I like this deal as well. Look, I think there are elements of truth in what people are saying. Dean Lombardi is an excellent GM. He's built a Stanley Cup winning team in a judicious and patient way. He must have seen something in Matt Frattin that warranted sending one of the league's top young backup goalies to the Leafs.
Frattin can be replaced rather easily, in fact. There are a few really nice third line options: Bickel, Stalberg, Gordon, to name a few. And the Leafs have cap space, as Nonis has reminded in recent comments. I also think that signing David Clarkson is essentially a foregone conclusion, so the loss of Komarov, Fratting, and (likely) MacArthur will easily be mitigated (in my opinion).
Also, not sure why exactly, but this deal feel more than a bit like last year's acquisition of JVR.
Frattin can be replaced rather easily, in fact. There are a few really nice third line options: Bickel, Stalberg, Gordon, to name a few. And the Leafs have cap space, as Nonis has reminded in recent comments. I also think that signing David Clarkson is essentially a foregone conclusion, so the loss of Komarov, Fratting, and (likely) MacArthur will easily be mitigated (in my opinion).
Also, not sure why exactly, but this deal feel more than a bit like last year's acquisition of JVR.
Peter D.
Moderator
I wouldn't say this is a home run deal (yet), but it's certainly not one I see much downside to.
The 2nd is a year or two out -- I thought for sure it would have been this year's. That can easily be recouped and considering I was okay that the 21st overall be used to acquire Bernier, this component is relatively inconsequential.
Scrivens -- whatever. He's a backup. Bernier is a huge upgrade. He'll be forgotten quickly.
Frattin -- I must be missing something as I don't see this as a huge loss. He's no more than a 3rd liner on this team, there is talent on the farm that could take his spot (Colborne, D'Amigo), and I just don't see that huge upside.
The Leafs went out and grabbed a high potential goalie for what I think is a cheapish price that isn't stripping the team of much. Would not surprise me if Bernier takes over from Reimer. If not and if anything, the Leafs have improved a very important position. If either goes down, we can feel quite comfortable with the other carrying the load.
The 2nd is a year or two out -- I thought for sure it would have been this year's. That can easily be recouped and considering I was okay that the 21st overall be used to acquire Bernier, this component is relatively inconsequential.
Scrivens -- whatever. He's a backup. Bernier is a huge upgrade. He'll be forgotten quickly.
Frattin -- I must be missing something as I don't see this as a huge loss. He's no more than a 3rd liner on this team, there is talent on the farm that could take his spot (Colborne, D'Amigo), and I just don't see that huge upside.
The Leafs went out and grabbed a high potential goalie for what I think is a cheapish price that isn't stripping the team of much. Would not surprise me if Bernier takes over from Reimer. If not and if anything, the Leafs have improved a very important position. If either goes down, we can feel quite comfortable with the other carrying the load.