Leafs @ Islanders - Feb. 12th, 7:00pm - TSN4, Fan 590

[herman]

I was on team "Fire the Carlyle late in the season after ensuring the playoffs was out of reach and tweaking the lineup with a stronger draft position after ascertaining which core to build around".

However, they are playing far worse than I know they are capable of, and I think that has a lot to do with their collective confidence being shattered very thoroughly. There is almost no point in keeping any of them to go through a thorough rebuilding process because they're so broken now, other than Rielly, Gardiner, Nylander, and maybe Kadri, JvR, Holland, and Panik.

 

[Kin]

Largely because the side that wanted Carlyle out also recognized there were significant issues with the roster...

Again, not that I was posing that question seriously but I think you and I might disagree about how significant the issues might have been seen as on that particular side.

 

[TML fan]

Tonight was the 1st night I felt bad for Kessel after the game.  Button is right when he says that Kessel signed an 8 year deal because he wanted to remain a Leaf.  I think Kessel realized he really isn't wanted.

Just for the record, this was the exchange:

"Do you worry about your future as you go through this stretch?"

"I go where they want me. I love Toronto, but if it's not here, it's not here."

I think it says a lot about him, being so throughly vilified by the media, that he can still say he loves it here, even if it's just lip service.

 

[Joe S.]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

 

[TML fan]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

I agree, but if you can get a package like the one I heard rumours about, I think you have to take it.

 

[bustaheims]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

You can, but it does have the potential to have the team try to accelerate the rebuild unnecessarily. Not that Kessel is old or anything, but, if he's still a part of the team, you're pushing still pushing for a quicker turn around so you can take advantage of as much of his contract as possible. Kessel is an excellent goal scorer, but, if the team if going to undergo a true rebuild, he may provide the best value for the team in the assets trading him could return rather than his play on the ice - and that can be said about most of the roster.

 

[Chris]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

I agree, but if you can get a package like the one I heard rumours about, I think you have to take it.

What have you heard?

I think you could choose to keep Kessel and rebuild around him, but if you get one of those "can't refuse" offers, you take it and go from there.

Kessel is an incredible talent, no doubt...not only a great sniper but tremendous vision and passing ability. That combination is rare. But, he is as streaky as I've ever seen. Can the team afford to rebuild/plan around a player who essentially disappears for 15-20 game stretches at a time?

On the other hand, who knows how much of those stretches are as much a reflection of his linemates and the rest of the team around him? The last couple of games, JVR has been invisible and Bozak has been that way for half the season.

Tough situation, but I think the best course of action is to get rid of them all and start from scratch (Rielly, maybe Gardiner and Kadri).

 

[Can8899]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

I agree, but if you can get a package like the one I heard rumours about, I think you have to take it.

What was the package?

 

[ZBBM]

So, how is it that it seems that somehow both sides were right?

The hockey gods wanted to unify a divided fan base. They could have given us a Cup but I guess this will do.

Post of the month.

 

[ZBBM]

Kessel is an incredible talent, no doubt...not only a great sniper but tremendous vision and passing ability. That combination is rare. But, he is as streaky as I've ever seen. Can the team afford to rebuild/plan around a player who essentially disappears for 15-20 game stretches at a time?

On the other hand, who knows how much of those stretches are as much a reflection of his linemates and the rest of the team around him? The last couple of games, JVR has been invisible and Bozak has been that way for half the season.

Tough situation, but I think the best course of action is to get rid of them all and start from scratch (Rielly, maybe Gardiner and Kadri).

Kessel's laziness without the puck diminishes his value significantly.  He is as bad a forward w/o the puck as I have ever seen.  Say what you will about Ward and O'Neill but their criticisms of Kessel during his latest/greatest disappearing act have been spot on.

It turns out NewPhil was a mirage.  OldPhil is Phil, and always will be.

 

[Chris]

Kessel's laziness without the puck diminishes his value significantly.  He is as bad a forward w/o the puck as I have ever seen.  Say what you will about Ward and O'Neill but their criticisms of Kessel during his latest/greatest disappearing act have been spot on.

It turns out NewPhil was a mirage.  OldPhil is Phil, and always will be.

I agree 100% which is the main reason I favor trading him. But, I've been watching that whole line pretty carefully and they are all like that. Did you see that goal against the Rangers? The one where whatever Ranger player carried the puck all the way from the Ranger end to the Leafs end...in sequence, Kessel, then Bozak, then JVR took turns waving their sticks at him as he skated past. No real effort to impede him by any of them.

That is a really bad combination. I think it's possible that putting Kessel with more physical/defensive minded players (especially at center) might work, but the Leafs don't really have those players. Could they get them quickly enough to make it worth keeping Kessel? I don't know.

 

[Joe S.]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

I agree, but if you can get a package like the one I heard rumours about, I think you have to take it.

I honestly haven't heard or seen anything....

If the leafs can do what they did with the Clark-Sundin trade with Kessel, then sure.

I want to see the Leafs with a first line centre - I saw Sundin for almost his entire career play without any first line wingers, and I've seen Kessel for his time with the leafs play without a first line centre - my rudimentary analysis concludes that the former has a greater chance of success than the latter.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Kessel's laziness without the puck diminishes his value significantly.  He is as bad a forward w/o the puck as I have ever seen. 

I think that says more about how much you watch other NHL teams than anything.  There are a bunch of elite offensive, bad defensive players league-wide.  Ever witnessed a Ryan Getzlaf backcheck?  And he's a C and an twice Olympic Gold Medallist.  Patrick Kane is bad defensively - and he's not expected to be more than that.  He's surrounded appropriately.

Since getting Gamecenter Live I've enjoyed getting to watch a pantsload more teams and I really think this idea of the elite scorer who's also defensively responsible is more or less fiction aside from a few players.  Kessel is who he is who he's always been.  Kessel will never be Jonathan Toews just like Patrick Kane won't be Jonathan Toews.  Kessel also does things that 95% of the league can't consistently do.

 

[Highlander]

the question is "Would Phil disappear if he was playing with a Sundin or McDavid or a Tavaras or Stamkos"?  Absolutely not. Kessel needs a talent his equal or superiour at the C to bring him to his fullest potential. Tyler is not that man.

 

[ZBBM]

Kessel's laziness without the puck diminishes his value significantly.  He is as bad a forward w/o the puck as I have ever seen. 

I think that says more about how much you watch other NHL teams than anything.  There are a bunch of elite offensive, bad defensive players league-wide.  Ever witnessed a Ryan Getzlaf backcheck?  And he's a C and an twice Olympic Gold Medallist.  Patrick Kane is bad defensively - and he's not expected to be more than that.  He's surrounded appropriately.

Since getting Gamecenter Live I've enjoyed getting to watch a pantsload more teams and I really think this idea of the elite scorer who's also defensively responsible is more or less fiction aside from a few players.  Kessel is who he is who he's always been.  Kessel will never be Jonathan Toews just like Patrick Kane won't be Jonathan Toews.  Kessel also does things that 95% of the league can't consistently do.

Seen 'em and Kessel is worse.  I already know you disagree.

Also I notice you don't deny my first sentence, which, in fact, is undeniable so that's good that you didn't even try.

 

[ZBBM]

Kessel's laziness without the puck diminishes his value significantly.  He is as bad a forward w/o the puck as I have ever seen.  Say what you will about Ward and O'Neill but their criticisms of Kessel during his latest/greatest disappearing act have been spot on.

It turns out NewPhil was a mirage.  OldPhil is Phil, and always will be.

I agree 100% which is the main reason I favor trading him. But, I've been watching that whole line pretty carefully and they are all like that. Did you see that goal against the Rangers? The one where whatever Ranger player carried the puck all the way from the Ranger end to the Leafs end...in sequence, Kessel, then Bozak, then JVR took turns waving their sticks at him as he skated past. No real effort to impede him by any of them.

That is a really bad combination. I think it's possible that putting Kessel with more physical/defensive minded players (especially at center) might work, but the Leafs don't really have those players. Could they get them quickly enough to make it worth keeping Kessel? I don't know.

Well, I have never said the Leaf's forward-D problems are all on Kessel.  All 3 of them are bad.

 

[TML fan]

I think you can keep kessel and have a rebuild - it seems plausible to me.

I agree, but if you can get a package like the one I heard rumours about, I think you have to take it.

What was the package?

Kreider, one of Duclair or Skjei, a 1st next year and a 2nd this year. The article says that's what the Leafs asked for.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Kreider, one of Duclair or Skjei, a 1st next year and a 2nd this year. The article says that's what the Leafs asked for.

The person who originally tweeted that was just suggesting that's what it would take, he never said that's what Toronto actually offered or that the Leafs and Rangers have even talked. Some no-name website picked it up and it took off.

 

[TML fan]

Kreider, one of Duclair or Skjei, a 1st next year and a 2nd this year. The article says that's what the Leafs asked for.

The person who originally tweeted that was just suggesting that's what it would take, he never said that's what Toronto actually offered or that the Leafs and Rangers have even talked. Some no-name website picked it up and it took off.

I know that. I'm just saying I think that's a pretty good package and something the Leafs should consider if it were to come up.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I know that. I'm just saying I think that's a pretty good package and something the Leafs should consider if it were to come up.

I'm just clarifying then because you called that a rumour when it's actually just one guys random idea. But yes that's probably something like what Kessel could get.