Leafs @ Islanders - Nov. 13th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[azzurri63]

I was gone for the last period but caught glimpses of the period.
Just catching up on some of the comments.
Sensing a lot of frustration from a lot of you and don?t blame you.
Been frustrated with this team and not just this year.

Said it before rinse and repeat.
Unfortunately some of you on here don?t see it.

As much as I hate Babcock and think he?s a huge part of the problem I?m starting to get more incensed with management for continuing with this crap for this long.

I said it weeks ago on another thread I created and that was how long do we continue with this crap.

Something needs to change and quick otherwise we are not making the playoffs.

Unfortunately Dubas put himself in a pickle as far as options.

I know some of you will say there is tons of time. New faces. Look what the Blues did last year etc etc.

Fact of the matter is regardless of personnel a lot of the deficiencies we see today we have seen in all of Babcocks tenure.

So it?s not like a flick of the switch it?s going to change this.

Some of you on here don?t see that unfortunately so keep drinking the Babcock koolaid.

 

[Chris]

(5) some size and a mean streak both at forward and defense.

6)  Consistency.  They could take a page from the Raptors, who take a never quit approach. 

Not saying the team lags but a little continuity of consistency (regardless of injuries) would go a long way to building up both confidence & positivity.

I think consistency falls into the category I called "seasoning" - basically learning how to play right and giving a more consistent effort.

The special teams issue is a big one. Someone else mentioned if we had scored on that early PP and killed the Islanders first penalty, the game would have looked very different. There's been a lot of games this year where the Leafs were gifted with multiple PPs and did absolutely nothing with them. Score a few more PP goals and kill a few more penalties and this season might be looking a lot different. Hopefully that comes around with time.

 

[Bill_Berg]

No physicality isn?t really a problem to me. If you?ve seen any of the Marlies, Dubas is not a shrinking violet in that regard. He knows there?s a time and place. From what I can tell, Babcock and Dubas are both advocates for useful physicality, i.e. will this help you get the puck and score the goals. But like I said previously, there are a few ways of getting the puck that don?t appear that physical, and there?s also the physicality of shrugging off people ramming you and making a play. I also think players will grow to become comfortable dishing it. You see the Marlies grads who were down there for 3 years or so are regular hitters for puck separation: Dermott, Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, Timashov, and now even Gauthier because he can catch up.

That's a good answer, thoughtful as usual, but your list at the end?  Those guys are not puck separators.  The first three play the nuanced physical game you describe, but not the one I'm talking about.  God bless Moore but he's too small, Timoshov not much more, and Gauthier is about as intimidating as Big Bird.

If met a guy dressed up as big bird in an alley in the middle of the night, I'd be terrified. 

 

[Boston Leaf]

Tyson Barrie looks like his next contract should be a raise of maybe 75 cents.. He is doing less than nothing to deserve a raise

 

[Andy007]

Although the score didn't reflect this, we dominated the first and second period. We have the skill to be a top team, but we consistently perform poorly when it comes to special teams (PP & PK). The system isn't working, and that system is designed by the coaching staff. The players are just as frustrated as we are.

There are many teams performing better with less talent. This isn't a team that's "missing" anything in terms of player resources. The issue is poor asset (player) allocation, and that falls squarely on the coaches.

Dubas has made some great acquisitions in the off season, with limited cap space, but it doesn't seem that Babcock is interested in using those assets where they should be used. There is a clear disconnect between Dubas and Babcock. Several people already mentioned a few of these poor decisions:

- Why is Barrie not on the PP?
- Petan can't make the 4th line on a regular basis, but is on the second PP unit.
- Always playing the backup on back to back nights.
- Gauthier being on PK.
...the list goes on.

The players need a fresh start under new coaching staff, while there is still time to secure a playoff position. We have some of the best players in the league, and at this rate we may not qualify for the playoffs.

Wanted to log on and quote this post, which I think is pretty much bang on. Well said and welcome to the site

 

[Sunbro]

We are currently sitting in 8th and final the playoff spot in the eastern conference, with a few games on the next three teams. If we do not win the next two games, either Carolina, Buffalo, or Tampa will knock us out of playoff contention. We have 22pts with 20 games played, while Tampa has 18 pts on 15 games played. Thats a 5 game differential!

Can you imagine the headlines in Toronto, if leafs are knocked out of playoff contention this weekend? I think thats the final straw that will break the camels back, and Dubas will be forced to fire Babs. I don't imagine Dubas is willing to throw the entire year, simply to give Babs more time.

The next two games are do or die for Babs...

 

[Kin]

I don't think Dubas will do anything until the Leafs actually miss the playoffs.

 

[Bender]

No physicality isn?t really a problem to me. If you?ve seen any of the Marlies, Dubas is not a shrinking violet in that regard. He knows there?s a time and place. From what I can tell, Babcock and Dubas are both advocates for useful physicality, i.e. will this help you get the puck and score the goals. But like I said previously, there are a few ways of getting the puck that don?t appear that physical, and there?s also the physicality of shrugging off people ramming you and making a play. I also think players will grow to become comfortable dishing it. You see the Marlies grads who were down there for 3 years or so are regular hitters for puck separation: Dermott, Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, Timashov, and now even Gauthier because he can catch up.

That's a good answer, thoughtful as usual, but your list at the end?  Those guys are not puck separators.  The first three play the nuanced physical game you describe, but not the one I'm talking about.  God bless Moore but he's too small, Timoshov not much more, and Gauthier is about as intimidating as Big Bird.

He's illustrating a point, not saying that the last few on the list are world beaters.

If by physicality we are talking about being a puck hound and strong on your skates and never quitting on a puck battle that's something I can get behind. If by physicality we need to bring in a Milan Lucic or if we're retconning how good i.e. bad Polak was then I'm not at all in that camp.

 

[Strangelove]

I don't think Dubas will do anything until the Leafs actually miss the playoffs.

Agreed. Unless they go on an epic losing streak there is no way he'll be fired before the end of the season.

 

[Frank E]

I?m done.   This team is just not good

Liar. 

 

[Bullfrog]

I like watching hockey because it makes me sad and angry.

It's better to feel pain than nothing at all; amiright?

 

[herman]

No physicality isn?t really a problem to me. If you?ve seen any of the Marlies, Dubas is not a shrinking violet in that regard. He knows there?s a time and place. From what I can tell, Babcock and Dubas are both advocates for useful physicality, i.e. will this help you get the puck and score the goals. But like I said previously, there are a few ways of getting the puck that don?t appear that physical, and there?s also the physicality of shrugging off people ramming you and making a play. I also think players will grow to become comfortable dishing it. You see the Marlies grads who were down there for 3 years or so are regular hitters for puck separation: Dermott, Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, Timashov, and now even Gauthier because he can catch up.

That's a good answer, thoughtful as usual, but your list at the end?  Those guys are not puck separators.  The first three play the nuanced physical game you describe, but not the one I'm talking about.  God bless Moore but he's too small, Timoshov not much more, and Gauthier is about as intimidating as Big Bird.

He's illustrating a point, not saying that the last few on the list are world beaters.

If by physicality we are talking about being a puck hound and strong on your skates and never quitting on a puck battle that's something I can get behind. If by physicality we need to bring in a Milan Lucic or if we're retconning how good i.e. bad Polak was then I'm not at all in that camp.

I forgot to include Justin Holl.

You don't have to necessarily be big to accomplish puck separation. Hit their hands, and park your butt between their hands and the puck. It's not easy to accomplish though (and being bigger makes it easier, less aiming) so it requires the application of timely effort. I think some fans want to see the Leafs go all out all the time, but that's probably not a good idea for a 60 minute game and some bodies just aren't designed for it. So short intense shifts, smart reads, sticking to your supportive structure, and then just putting the effort into executing will get the job done. Do a lot of those little jobs consistently will lead to more successful puck retrievals, and more puck time leads to more offense time, etc.

Right now, it's just like 4-7 missed executions at critical times sinking the Leafs chances. At the same time, the team is still battling once it gets knocked into a hole. That, to me, is a promising sign. They're still thinking a bit more than playing right now, but it'll come.

 

[ZBBM]

No physicality isn?t really a problem to me. If you?ve seen any of the Marlies, Dubas is not a shrinking violet in that regard. He knows there?s a time and place. From what I can tell, Babcock and Dubas are both advocates for useful physicality, i.e. will this help you get the puck and score the goals. But like I said previously, there are a few ways of getting the puck that don?t appear that physical, and there?s also the physicality of shrugging off people ramming you and making a play. I also think players will grow to become comfortable dishing it. You see the Marlies grads who were down there for 3 years or so are regular hitters for puck separation: Dermott, Johnsson, Kapanen, Moore, Timashov, and now even Gauthier because he can catch up.

That's a good answer, thoughtful as usual, but your list at the end?  Those guys are not puck separators.  The first three play the nuanced physical game you describe, but not the one I'm talking about.  God bless Moore but he's too small, Timoshov not much more, and Gauthier is about as intimidating as Big Bird.

He's illustrating a point, not saying that the last few on the list are world beaters.

If by physicality we are talking about being a puck hound and strong on your skates and never quitting on a puck battle that's something I can get behind. If by physicality we need to bring in a Milan Lucic or if we're retconning how good i.e. bad Polak was then I'm not at all in that camp.

I forgot to include Justin Holl.

You don't have to necessarily be big to accomplish puck separation. Hit their hands, and park your butt between their hands and the puck. It's not easy to accomplish though (and being bigger makes it easier, less aiming) so it requires the application of timely effort. I think some fans want to see the Leafs go all out all the time, but that's probably not a good idea for a 60 minute game and some bodies just aren't designed for it. So short intense shifts, smart reads, sticking to your supportive structure, and then just putting the effort into executing will get the job done. Do a lot of those little jobs consistently will lead to more successful puck retrievals, and more puck time leads to more offense time, etc.

Right now, it's just like 4-7 missed executions at critical times sinking the Leafs chances. At the same time, the team is still battling once it gets knocked into a hole. That, to me, is a promising sign. They're still thinking a bit more than playing right now, but it'll come.

My assertion is that the game I described in my original post is what they need to do.  What you are saying here isn't going to get it done.

BTW, this isn't the first season that Babcock has tried to get them to play your style ("play right").  They were supposed to be learning this stuff last year (and the season before, and before.)  I don't understand the declaration that "it'll come."  If they could do it at all, they should have been able to do it by now.    It makes my brain hurt to watch them ? over and over and over again ? "not start on time," "have a few letdowns," "get away from the game plan," and all the other cliches they spout.

 

[herman]

From an education standpoint, it?s pretty easy to have one person get it and perform as expected. For a team situation in a fluid game scenario when there are active forces working in opposition, I think it takes more time than that. They?re actually way better off the puck now than they were in previous seasons but the goals are not going into the right net right now.

I was listening on the radio for the first period last night and apparently we missed connecting on three net-front crosscrease passes. Completely different game outlook and even stats if the sticks caught some puck there.

 

[Frank E]

I honestly don't know why they haven't been more lucky lately.  The screw ups end up in their net all the time it seems though...but they played some good hockey last night, for many parts of the game. 

Is the PP a player issue, or a structural issue?  I don't think their structure is much different with the 1-3-1 that everyone else ices.

I thought Nylander was lazy on the backcheck on the Johnsson lousy drop pass on goal #1.  They scored a nice goal together to make up for it, but still.

Moore on the PK doesn't take the man or the shot alley on goal #2.  Not sure he's a good enough PK option.

Muzzin giveaway was weak, but I don't know what Kerfoot was doing not taking the man or the shot on the resulting 2 on 1 on goal #3.

Ceci got walked around on the PK, and Gauthier was covering nobody on goal number 4.

Barrie passed it behind Matthews...with an empty net behind him.  I don't know what he was doing there?

I was thinking last night that maybe this team misses Kadri a lot.

 

[rdowdall]

I honestly don't know why they haven't been more lucky lately.  The screw ups end up in their net all the time it seems though...but they played some good hockey last night, for many parts of the game. 

Is the PP a player issue, or a structural issue?  I don't think their structure is much different with the 1-3-1 that everyone else ices.

I thought Nylander was lazy on the backcheck on the Johnsson lousy drop pass on goal #1.  They scored a nice goal together to make up for it, but still.

Moore on the PK doesn't take the man or the shot alley on goal #2.  Not sure he's a good enough PK option.

Muzzin giveaway was weak, but I don't know what Kerfoot was doing not taking the man or the shot on the resulting 2 on 1 on goal #3.

Ceci got walked around on the PK, and Gauthier was covering nobody on goal number 4.

Barrie passed it behind Matthews...with an empty net behind him.  I don't know what he was doing there?

I was thinking last night that maybe this team misses Kadri a lot.

It kind of reminds  me of the year where the Leafs got Sundin.  They also went out and got Mike Ridley and Benoit Hogue that year.  They were a more talented team, but they looked out of sorts the whole year.  The lockout may have played a part in that though.  Still the tan made a lot of changes and they never recovered and they had to retool afterwards around Sundin.

 

[Bender]

I honestly don't know why they haven't been more lucky lately.  The screw ups end up in their net all the time it seems though...but they played some good hockey last night, for many parts of the game. 

Is the PP a player issue, or a structural issue?  I don't think their structure is much different with the 1-3-1 that everyone else ices.

I thought Nylander was lazy on the backcheck on the Johnsson lousy drop pass on goal #1.  They scored a nice goal together to make up for it, but still.

Moore on the PK doesn't take the man or the shot alley on goal #2.  Not sure he's a good enough PK option.

Muzzin giveaway was weak, but I don't know what Kerfoot was doing not taking the man or the shot on the resulting 2 on 1 on goal #3.

Ceci got walked around on the PK, and Gauthier was covering nobody on goal number 4.

Barrie passed it behind Matthews...with an empty net behind him.  I don't know what he was doing there?

I was thinking last night that maybe this team misses Kadri a lot.

To be fair I remember what I thought of Kadri's game last year and I didn't think it was all that great.

 

[Chris]

From an education standpoint, it?s pretty easy to have one person get it and perform as expected. For a team situation in a fluid game scenario when there are active forces working in opposition, I think it takes more time than that. They?re actually way better off the puck now than they were in previous seasons but the goals are not going into the right net right now.

I was listening on the radio for the first period last night and apparently we missed connecting on three net-front crosscrease passes. Completely different game outlook and even stats if the sticks caught some puck there.

My recollection of those plays is that they weren't really great looks - the Leaf players in front were covered and the passes (at least one of them) were well off the ice. Not really high percentage stuff I don't think.

The Leafs seem to go on stretches where they control the play for long periods but don't get many really clean shots. I don't know what the analytics say about that, I'm just going off how things look to me during games. They seem to be settling a lot more for passes back to the point; this happens on the PP too.

This was also another game with zero SOG for Matthews. Anyone know how often Pastrnak or Ovie go shotless in games? Maybe it's more often than I think as I don't watch other games very often, but he's got to find ways to get SOG every game.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Tyson Barrie looks like his next contract should be a raise of maybe 75 cents.. He is doing less than nothing to deserve a raise

And that's on the Leafs. Babs/coaches are using him wrong. Barrie should have been tried on PP1 but in their wisdom, nope, lets keep rolling out the same crap that struggled last year as well. I don't get it.

 

[Guilt Trip]

This was also another game with zero SOG for Matthews. Anyone know how often Pastrnak or Ovie go shotless in games? Maybe it's more often than I think as I don't watch other games very often, but he's got to find ways to get SOG every game.

I think it's pretty safe to say that no one in the history of the game gets at least a shot on net in every single game. I don't know the answer to your question but I'd be more interested in seeing the shot attempts when he doesn't register a shot.