Leafs name Peter Horachek and Steve Spott assistant coaches.

[Redleaf]

Right. And if you play a team with a lot cheap shot artists, some players may feel impeded by that, and may not give their full and undivided attention to the game at hand.

But, really, for the most part, they're going to have that in the back of their mind regardless of whether or not there's an enforcer in the lineup, because that enforcer isn't going to on the ice at the same time as most of the players in the line up. He's not protecting them in any way. At best, he's providing some form of meaningless retroactive face punching - and, often, not with the guy who delivered the questionable hit.

I'm not going to call that a completely meaningless statement, because I just don't say things like that to people, no matter what opinion is expressed...

But maybe....just maybe some players believe those enforcers will keep the cheap shot artists at bay a little, knowing they will have to fight a goon if they hack and whack a star player enough?

I'll hang up and listen to your reply...

 

[Kin]

I had completely forgotten Belak was on the team that year, but I do recall that there wasn't a goon playing for the Leafs that particular night, because I thought there would have been some retaliation against Jansen and there wasn't.

I don't get what's tricky about this. Nobody on the Leafs saw the hit on the ice(Tucker, in the dressing room did which is why he was the one yelling at Janssen). They wouldn't have had any idea what happened until they saw the play, the first chance to do so would have been in the second intermission after which Janssen didn't play.

So what would Belak, or any tough guy, have done? Jumped Janssen in the parking lot? Fought someone at random on the Devils?

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not going to call that a completely meaningless statement, because I just don't say things like that to people, no matter what opinion is expressed...

But maybe....just maybe some players believe those enforcers will keep the cheap shot artists at bay a little, knowing they will have to fight a goon if they hack and whack a star player enough?

I'll hang up and listen to your reply...

But they don't have to fight the goon. They've never had to fight the goon. In fact, it's often their team's goon that ends up having to fight the goon. And, the players have been around the game long enough to know that. I think the players know better. The cheap shot artists aren't as plentiful as we make them out to be, nor are there as many cheap shots delivered. As much as players may appreciate the fact that there are guys out there willing to put their faces on the line, I don't think any of them really display any changes to the way they play whether or not they're in the lineup.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I'm not going to call that a completely meaningless statement, because I just don't say things like that to people, no matter what opinion is expressed...

But maybe....just maybe some players believe those enforcers will keep the cheap shot artists at bay a little, knowing they will have to fight a goon if they hack and whack a star player enough?

I'll hang up and listen to your reply...

But they don't have to fight the goon. They've never had to fight the goon. In fact, it's often their team's goon that ends up having to fight the goon. And, the players have been around the game long enough to know that. I think the players know better. The cheap shot artists aren't as plentiful as we make them out to be, nor are there as many cheap shots delivered. As much as players may appreciate the fact that there are guys out there willing to put their faces on the line, I don't think any of them really display any changes to the way they play whether or not they're in the lineup.

I agree with you, but what strikes me as odd is the constant praise that almost all players have for the enforcers on the team, teammates often speak about them with the same doe eyed look they get when talking about veteran star players.

If they really don't believe these guys being in their corner helps them out as you say, then it strikes me as a little odd that they'd be so effusive in their praise for the team goons and look I know at least part of that is saying the right things, being a soundbite machine, but it seems like they go even above that when talking about their teammates that are enforcers.

To be clear again, I agree with you vis-a-vis their actual value, I just think you're a little off in how they are perceived by teammates.

 

[bustaheims]

To be clear again, I agree with you vis-a-vis their actual value, I just think you're a little off in how they are perceived by teammates.

I know a lot of players see the fact these guys are willing to put their faces on the line and stick up for their teammates and such. I have no doubt that creates a lot of respect for these guys, and, that's what I think you're seeing. I don't think too many players really believe they prevent anything.

 

[Kin]

If they really don't believe these guys being in their corner helps them out as you say, then it strikes me as a little odd that they'd be so effusive in their praise for the team goons and look I know at least part of that is saying the right things, being a soundbite machine, but it seems like they go even above that when talking about their teammates that are enforcers.

There's been a lot written about enforcers over the last few years so I can't entirely remember which enforcer said this(I think it was Boogard, maybe) who talked about how, because there's no clear way to judge the skill of an enforcer and competition for jobs are so fierce in the NHL that enforcers had more responsibility than just about anyone to be well liked by their teammates. It's why, I think, so many enforcers end up being the few guys in the league with anything resembling a personality.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I think this kind of argument will go on for a long time yet, it's just one of those issues, violence, injury and all that.

I'm stuck in the middle on this issue, I despise, staged fighting, or useless fighting for that matter. I hate it when it happens in a game, however at the same time, I believe there needs to be some policing going on, between players on both teams and in the league for that matter.

As long as the coaches keep putting out the Kaleta's of the NHL, I think it's at least wise to have a tougher player on your payroll whether he plays every night or not. I do see that teams can get around that, by having toughness through the line-up, like the type Shanahan used to be.

If you're going to have a player like that, I totally agree with that player being talented at hockey also, otherwise, why bother, you might as well sign Kaleta or the like and go full bush league.

I think one variable might be that the NHL is getting younger, faster and trending even faster than that. If you have Colton Orr defending against some of these kids coming up and they don't even have to be Kadri or whatever, they'll just blow by Orr and make him look even more irrelevant than he already does. Speed, youth and talent are exposing "enforcers" rapidly.

I think guys like Gallagher/ Marchand/ Clarkson are new breed of that type of player, like Tucker, but less crazy. That player has to be able to be more than a warm punching bag. Did I mention that I despise staged fighting?

 

[Rebel_1812]

Where do you guys draw the line with that though? Do you not dress anyone tough and pretend like the other team isn't going to nail your star player? Then when they do, what are you supposed to do?..................Score more or something when they keep smashing you around the ice?

Some of you guys make it sound like you'd be happy to watch the NFL if it were two hand touch and a guy yelling out 5 steamboats before he went to touch the quarterback with both hands.

You'd really be able to see the true NFL talent that way but I don't know if it's all that entertaining.

Thankfully no one is advocating for that. In fact, even those who advocate for the complete elimination of fighting aren't advocating for the elimination of hitting and physical hockey.

When was the last time a star player/team got nailed/smashed around the ice and an enforcer did something about it?  I can't remember a single occasion.

When I think about enforcers and their role in the game, I think about that Kaberle hit more than a few years back, and how no one on the team did anything about it.

If I recall correctly the Leafs got pushed around a lot that season, and an enforcer could have settled them down a bit and taken their minds off getting abused by the cheap shot artists.

Other than keeping guys honest, I agree that their role is limited.

Their enforcer at the time did fight the guy during the next match with Jersey.  I think it was Belak.

 

[freer]

Where do you guys draw the line with that though? Do you not dress anyone tough and pretend like the other team isn't going to nail your star player? Then when they do, what are you supposed to do?..................Score more or something when they keep smashing you around the ice?

Some of you guys make it sound like you'd be happy to watch the NFL if it were two hand touch and a guy yelling out 5 steamboats before he went to touch the quarterback with both hands.

You'd really be able to see the true NFL talent that way but I don't know if it's all that entertaining.

Thankfully no one is advocating for that. In fact, even those who advocate for the complete elimination of fighting aren't advocating for the elimination of hitting and physical hockey.

When was the last time a star player/team got nailed/smashed around the ice and an enforcer did something about it?  I can't remember a single occasion.

When I think about enforcers and their role in the game, I think about that Kaberle hit more than a few years back, and how no one on the team did anything about it.

If I recall correctly the Leafs got pushed around a lot that season, and an enforcer could have settled them down a bit and taken their minds off getting abused by the cheap shot artists.

Other than keeping guys honest, I agree that their role is limited.

Their enforcer at the time did fight the guy during the next match with Jersey.  I think it was Belak.

Belak was not dress that night, and neither was Tucker. I remember him going crazy in the hall way after the hit. IMO I don't think the hit would of happened if Wade was in the line up that night. That is just me though.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Where do you guys draw the line with that though? Do you not dress anyone tough and pretend like the other team isn't going to nail your star player? Then when they do, what are you supposed to do?..................Score more or something when they keep smashing you around the ice?

Some of you guys make it sound like you'd be happy to watch the NFL if it were two hand touch and a guy yelling out 5 steamboats before he went to touch the quarterback with both hands.

You'd really be able to see the true NFL talent that way but I don't know if it's all that entertaining.

Thankfully no one is advocating for that. In fact, even those who advocate for the complete elimination of fighting aren't advocating for the elimination of hitting and physical hockey.

When was the last time a star player/team got nailed/smashed around the ice and an enforcer did something about it?  I can't remember a single occasion.

When I think about enforcers and their role in the game, I think about that Kaberle hit more than a few years back, and how no one on the team did anything about it.

If I recall correctly the Leafs got pushed around a lot that season, and an enforcer could have settled them down a bit and taken their minds off getting abused by the cheap shot artists.

Other than keeping guys honest, I agree that their role is limited.

Their enforcer at the time did fight the guy during the next match with Jersey.  I think it was Belak.

Belak was not dress that night, and neither was Tucker. I remember him going crazy in the hall way after the hit. IMO I don't think the hit would of happened if Wade was in the line up that night. That is just me though.

Why not?

 

[Redleaf]

Where do you guys draw the line with that though? Do you not dress anyone tough and pretend like the other team isn't going to nail your star player? Then when they do, what are you supposed to do?..................Score more or something when they keep smashing you around the ice?

Some of you guys make it sound like you'd be happy to watch the NFL if it were two hand touch and a guy yelling out 5 steamboats before he went to touch the quarterback with both hands.

You'd really be able to see the true NFL talent that way but I don't know if it's all that entertaining.

Thankfully no one is advocating for that. In fact, even those who advocate for the complete elimination of fighting aren't advocating for the elimination of hitting and physical hockey.

When was the last time a star player/team got nailed/smashed around the ice and an enforcer did something about it?  I can't remember a single occasion.

When I think about enforcers and their role in the game, I think about that Kaberle hit more than a few years back, and how no one on the team did anything about it.

If I recall correctly the Leafs got pushed around a lot that season, and an enforcer could have settled them down a bit and taken their minds off getting abused by the cheap shot artists.

Other than keeping guys honest, I agree that their role is limited.

Their enforcer at the time did fight the guy during the next match with Jersey.  I think it was Belak.

Belak was not dress that night, and neither was Tucker. I remember him going crazy in the hall way after the hit. IMO I don't think the hit would of happened if Wade was in the line up that night. That is just me though.

Why not?

Because somebody would have to fight Belak. Even if it's the other teams goon, I don't think players enjoy putting a team mate in a situation where they could end up severely injured, suspended and fined because of something stupid they did to another player. Would you feel alright being the one responsible for your team mate ending up with a career ending injury?

And before you say, 'that's their job', think about being the one that caused that player to suffer, because of a cheap shot you pulled that was completely unnecessary.

 

[bustaheims]

Because somebody would have to fight Belak. Even if it's the other teams goon, I don't think players enjoy putting a team mate in a situation where they could end up severely injured, suspended and maybe fined because of something stupid they did to another player. Would you feel alright being the one responsible for your team mate ending up with a career ending injury?

And before you say, 'that's their job', think about being the one that caused that player to suffer, because of a cheap shot that was completely unnecessary.

Except that Janssen was the Devils' goon, and he had absolutely no problem putting himself in a position where he might have ended up fighting.

Also, guys aren't thinking of their teammates and the potential consequences when they're going to deliver a hit. There isn't time for them to. The opportunity to deliver the hit is fleeting, and really, the only decision they have time to make is "can I get there in time to make this hit?"

 

[Redleaf]

Because somebody would have to fight Belak. Even if it's the other teams goon, I don't think players enjoy putting a team mate in a situation where they could end up severely injured, suspended and maybe fined because of something stupid they did to another player. Would you feel alright being the one responsible for your team mate ending up with a career ending injury?

And before you say, 'that's their job', think about being the one that caused that player to suffer, because of a cheap shot that was completely unnecessary.

Except that Janssen was the Devils' goon, and he had absolutely no problem putting himself in a position where he might have ended up fighting.

Also, guys aren't thinking of their teammates and the potential consequences when they're going to deliver a hit. There isn't time for them to. The opportunity to deliver the hit is fleeting, and really, the only decision they have time to make is "can I get there in time to make this hit?"

In that particular situation than there really was cause for retaliation. I was speaking about players taking cheap shots, and knowing someone will usually have to take a punch in the head for their actions.

 

[Redleaf]

Because somebody would have to fight Belak. Even if it's the other teams goon, I don't think players enjoy putting a team mate in a situation where they could end up severely injured, suspended and maybe fined because of something stupid they did to another player. Would you feel alright being the one responsible for your team mate ending up with a career ending injury?

And before you say, 'that's their job', think about being the one that caused that player to suffer, because of a cheap shot that was completely unnecessary.

Also, guys aren't thinking of their teammates and the potential consequences when they're going to deliver a hit. There isn't time for them to. The opportunity to deliver the hit is fleeting, and really, the only decision they have time to make is "can I get there in time to make this hit?"

You're talking about the honest guys that have occasionally accidents and harm other players without intent.

We both know that other players try and disrupt the flow of the game by whacking and hacking at guys. Those are the players that have to look in the mirror the next morning after guys get broken faces because of their stupidity.

 

[bustaheims]

We both know that other players try and disrupt the flow of the game by whacking and hacking at guys. Those are the players that have to look in the mirror the next morning after guys get broken faces because of their stupidity.

Sure. After the game, or the next morning. But, at the time, in the moment, they're not concerned with any of that. They're not thinking things through before they act. They're acting on instinct, training, etc. They're not concerned about injuring a player or a teammate getting injured because of their actions while they're lining up and delivering the hit. They might afterwards, sure, but, not while the play is happening. The window to deliver a hit is usually less than 1 second. There's no time for players to think about anything else other than delivering the hit.

 

[Redleaf]

We both know that other players try and disrupt the flow of the game by whacking and hacking at guys. Those are the players that have to look in the mirror the next morning after guys get broken faces because of their stupidity.

Sure. After the game, or the next morning. But, at the time, in the moment, they're not concerned with any of that. They're not thinking things through before they act. They're acting on instinct, training, etc. They're not concerned about injuring a player or a teammate getting injured because of their actions while they're lining up and delivering the hit. They might afterwards, sure, but, not while the play is happening. The window to deliver a hit is usually less than 1 second. There's no time for players to think about anything else other than delivering the hit.

No offense, but how do you know what goes on the minds of the players during a game? Some may be just as you've described above, and some may be intentionally mean.

 

[bustaheims]

No offense, but how do you know what goes on the minds of the players during a game? Some may be just as you've described above, and some may be intentionally mean.

Well, some of it comes from hearing them talk about these things, and some of it comes from experience playing various sports myself. You're not thinking things through with the same logical flow in the moment as you do outside the moment. Whether or not guys are intentionally mean doesn't really weigh into things too much. While it does make them more likely to read a play as a good opportunity to deliver a hit than others might read it as, that's about the extent of its impact. They have less than a second to make a decision and act upon it. Do you really believe that's enough time to consider all the factors you're suggesting they consider?

 

[Redleaf]

No offense, but how do you know what goes on the minds of the players during a game? Some may be just as you've described above, and some may be intentionally mean.

Well, some of it comes from hearing them talk about these things, and some of it comes from experience playing various sports myself. You're not thinking things through with the same logical flow in the moment as you do outside the moment. Whether or not guys are intentionally mean doesn't really weigh into things too much. While it does make them more likely to read a play as a good opportunity to deliver a hit than others might read it as, that's about the extent of its impact. They have less than a second to make a decision and act upon it. Do you really believe that's enough time to consider all the factors you're suggesting they consider?

Let me just say I think your off on this. Your not differentiating between the fair players who go into a bodycheck from the ones who have other intentions going into a check. If you played the game like you say, you should already know that.

 

[Kin]

Because somebody would have to fight Belak. Even if it's the other teams goon, I don't think players enjoy putting a team mate in a situation where they could end up severely injured, suspended and fined because of something stupid they did to another player. Would you feel alright being the one responsible for your team mate ending up with a career ending injury?

At some point, I'm sorry to say, you do sort of have to let the facts of the matter intrude onto the subject. If what you were saying were true there'd be ample evidence of cheap shots against teams without enforcers whereas the presence of enforcers would be seen as a deterrent but the reality is that if you look at cheap shots throughout the history of the league you'll see that the presence of enforcers in the line-up has absolutely no bearing on cheap shots.

Matt Cooke ended Marc Savard's career with both Milan Lucic and Shawn Thornton in the line-up for the Bruins. Peter Worrell was on the Avs the night Bertuzzi broke Steve Moore's neck. Colton Orr and Sean Avery were in the line-up with the Rangers when Chris Simon two-handed Ryan Hollweg. Aaron Voros and Donald Brashear were in the line-up when Matt Cooke elbowed Artem Ansimov. The Rangers had Brandon Prust when Cooke elbowed Ryan McDonagh. The Blue Jackets had Jared Boll when Cooke was suspended for boarding Fyodor Tutin.

How can you look at something like that and think that someone like Matt Cooke gives the slightest damn about an enforcer on the other team?

 

[bustaheims]

Let me just say I think your off on this. Your not differentiating between the fair players who go into a bodycheck from the ones who have other intentions going into a check. If you played the game like you say, you should already know that.

I am. The thing is, the difference isn't the the thought process. It's in how they read the play and how they deliver hits. The "fair" players don't see the same hit opportunities that those with "other intentions" do, because they have a different set of instincts and drives. They don't deliver hits in the same way, either. They've learned to throw hits without aiming high or leaving their feet, or other such more dangerous methods. Again, it's not thinking, it's training. Hockey is very much a read and react sport. There isn't a lot of thinking going on in the heat of the moment. The adrenaline coursing through your system at the time doesn't really allow for that.