Leafs offer for Bernier.......Or Not!

[Champ Kind]

Maybe it's Liles?

If it had been Liles, I think Nonis would have done the deal already.

Why? Because he's old? Liles might not be so easily replaceable.

Gets rid of a dicey contract.

The way Carlyle has been playing him, Phaneuf/Kostka (one on LHS), Gunnarsson (LHS) are ahead of him and Gardiner will take a LHS spot in the top 4 long term.

So you've got a $3.9 mil/yr cap hit fourth in your dman depth chart on the LHS long term.

I never cared for Burke's re-signing of Liles at the price and term he did.

Over the next couple of years, if they needed a UFA dman, there are some still unsigned.

If Kostka stays in the top 4, he's a UFA this summer - they'll have to pay him to keep him.

Liles is 32 now. He'll be 34+ before they're contending so he's an expendable spare part in my opinion IF you can find someone to take his contract.

Do you know if that salary is out of whack for most comparable 3-4 defensemen in the league?

I think his cap hit is a little high - but not terrible for  what he is and what he's done. The term is the more troubling aspect for me.

I disagree.  I think the Liles signing was fair value for the team.  In fact, I would argue Liles gave a bit of a discount versus what he likely would have earned in free agency.  Did you see what Jason Garrison signed for?  How about Matt Carle?  6 years at $5.5 per year.  And the list goes on (Dennis Wideman, anyone?).

I'd say these are comparable players, all under 30 and, viewed with the lense, Liles' deal looks pretty good.

 

[Kin]

I disagree.  I think the Liles signing was fair value for the team.  In fact, I would argue Liles gave a bit of a discount versus what he likely would have earned in free agency.  Did you see what Jason Garrison signed for?  How about Matt Carle?  6 years at $5.5 per year.  And the list goes on (Dennis Wideman, anyone?).

Those three defensemen currently rank 2nd, 1st and 1st on their current teams in terms of ice time.

 

[Champ Kind]

I disagree.  I think the Liles signing was fair value for the team.  In fact, I would argue Liles gave a bit of a discount versus what he likely would have earned in free agency.  Did you see what Jason Garrison signed for?  How about Matt Carle?  6 years at $5.5 per year.  And the list goes on (Dennis Wideman, anyone?).

Those three defensemen currently rank 2nd, 1st and 1st on their current teams in terms of ice time.

Damn you 

 

[Kin]

I disagree.  I think the Liles signing was fair value for the team.  In fact, I would argue Liles gave a bit of a discount versus what he likely would have earned in free agency.  Did you see what Jason Garrison signed for?  How about Matt Carle?  6 years at $5.5 per year.  And the list goes on (Dennis Wideman, anyone?).

Those three defensemen currently rank 2nd, 1st and 1st on their current teams in terms of ice time.

Damn you 

I'm sorry. It's my least attractive quality.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So he's not a clear upgrade there

Reimer's got roughly 1000 shots faced more and almost 30 more games on Bernier and, at this point, an even SV% (.911 Reimer, .910 Bernier), on probably a tougher team to play behind.  So, no, definitely nowhere near a clear upgrade.

 

[Redleaf]

Has Bernier done anything to suggest he'd be the answer for the Leafs in net? Has he done anything to suggest he'd be any better than the guys already here?

That's the questions I ask. I don't know. Maybe someone has more knowledge on the subject.

Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic so to speak.

I still think the Leafs need to bring in a veteran goaltender that can play at least 40-50 games per season and give Reimer some more on-the-job training time. I could see a mentor of sorts being very beneficial for his development.

EDIT: Too bad Giggy didn't work out here.

 

[Kin]

Reimer's got roughly 1000 shots faced more and almost 30 more games on Bernier and, at this point, an even SV% (.911 Reimer, .910 Bernier), on probably a tougher team to play behind.  So, no, definitely nowhere near a clear upgrade.

Yeah, I mean, I'd say the GP is more a function of the fact that LA does have a legit #1 and Bernier's got slightly better AHL numbers so...yeah, I'd put them neck and neck.

 

[leafplasma]

So he's not a clear upgrade there

Reimer's got roughly 1000 shots faced more and almost 30 more games on Bernier and, at this point, an even SV% (.911 Reimer, .910 Bernier), on probably a tougher team to play behind.  So, no, definitely nowhere near a clear upgrade.

Also pair that with the fact that Bernier has done that as a backup which means he likely gets the call against weaker calibre clubs.  I would err on clear downgrade rather than upgrade.

 

[Kin]

Also pair that with the fact that Bernier has done that as a backup which means he likely gets the call against weaker calibre clubs.

The good thing about the stats we have available to us is that we don't really need to make assumptions like that. Just looking over Bernier's game logs and it doesn't really appear as though he was saved for starts against weaker clubs.

I think the idea that a back-up would be used that way is more a reflection of a sort of video-game armchair strategist's mentality then what you actually see. Everything I've heard from coaches/read on the matter is that they use the back-up when they think their starter is tired and needs the night off, not because of who they're playing.

Add in that it can be harder for a clear back-up to find a rhythm than a starter and I still think both guys are neck and neck. If you remove the three terrible games Bernier played as a 19 year old from the equation his SV% bumps up to .915, just as an added for instance.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

So Nik, would you have them give up assets for a guy that has shown no more than Reimer in the NHL? How does that solve anything but deplete the current stock in the cupboard.

 

[Kin]

So Nik, would you have them give up assets for a guy that has shown no more than Reimer in the NHL? How does that solve anything but deplete the current stock in the cupboard.

Well, this probably goes without saying but it depends on what those assets are.

As to the question of what it solves, I suppose the answer is two-fold. Right away, it's an improvement, I think significantly so, to the team's back-up goaltending, a position of some importance.

To the concern about giving something up, let's just say for argument that the deal would be Percy, Scrivens and a second round pick. Does that trade solve anything? No. But Percy, Scrivens and a second round pick aren't solving any problems right now either. Bernier's value would be in his potential to emerge as a legitimate #1 or #1a goalie just like Percy's value is his potential to be a good NHL defenseman.

 

[leafplasma]

Also pair that with the fact that Bernier has done that as a backup which means he likely gets the call against weaker calibre clubs.

The good thing about the stats we have available to us is that we don't really need to make assumptions like that. Just looking over Bernier's game logs and it doesn't really appear as though he was saved for starts against weaker clubs.

I think the idea that a back-up would be used that way is more a reflection of a sort of video-game armchair strategist's mentality then what you actually see. Everything I've heard from coaches/read on the matter is that they use the back-up when they think their starter is tired and needs the night off, not because of who they're playing.

Add in that it can be harder for a clear back-up to find a rhythm than a starter and I still think both guys are neck and neck. If you remove the three terrible games Bernier played as a 19 year old from the equation his SV% bumps up to .915, just as an added for instance.

Don't even think about picking out 3 games or shall we do that for Reimer or please remove the 3 lights out games Bernier put up in his short 3 game stint in 2009. You know better than that. I think it is crazy to think that the opposition doesn't come into play in deciding when a backup gets a start. If you are RC right now and you think you need to get Scrivens into a game. Do you start him against Boston tonight or Carolina on Monday?  The biggest variable here are the teams both goalies are playing behind.  Bernier won't be a Leaf.

 

[Kin]

Don't even think about picking out 3 games or shall we do that for Reimer

Sure. In the interest of fairness feel free to disregard all of the games Reimer played as a 19 year old too.

I think it is crazy to think that the opposition doesn't come into play in deciding when a backup gets a start. If you are RC right now and you think you need to get Scrivens into a game. Do you start him against Boston tonight or Carolina on Monday?

It doesn't matter. It could be argued either way. If you start Scrivens against Boston, you have a better chance of beating Carolina. If you start him against Carolina, you have a better chance of beating Boston. The Leafs aren't a good enough team that a game against Carolina, regardless of who starts, is a gimme.

Either way, Bernier's record doesn't show that he has a disproportionate number of starts against bad teams.

 

[Optimus Reimer]

I would rather give Scrivens a chance.  If he plays well enough to keep the Leafs in games, there would be no requirement to make a deal for another goalie, and the Leafs need to see what he can actually do.  If on the other hand, Reimer's injury will keep him out of the lineup for a longer than expected period of time, and Scrivens or Rynnas cannot do the job, then I would try to make a deal for a goalie, by obtaining the best goalie available for the lowest price.  What Nonis has done for the Leafs so far has led me to believe I can trust his judgement for now, so I would expect him to make a good move for the Leafs if he was forced to make one. 

It's more of the media wanting the Leafs to make a trade because of Reimer's injury, meanwhile before the half season started, they were the ones wanting the Leafs to make a trade because in their view, Reimer or Scrivens were not able to play at the NHL level.  There was even a media rumour during the lockout that claimed the Leafs had acquired Luongo for Bozak, another player and one of the Leafs goalie prospects.  The trade was a done deal and would be announced once the lockout was over. 

 

[mjmgrand]

I would rather give Scrivens a chance.  If he plays well enough to keep the Leafs in games, there would be no requirement to make a deal for another goalie, and the Leafs need to see what he can actually do.  If on the other hand, Reimer's injury will keep him out of the lineup for a longer than expected period of time, and Scrivens or Rynnas cannot do the job, then I would try to make a deal for a goalie, by obtaining the best goalie available for the lowest price.  What Nonis has done for the Leafs so far has led me to believe I can trust his judgement for now, so I would expect him to make a good move for the Leafs if he was forced to make one. 

It's more of the media wanting the Leafs to make a trade because of Reimer's injury, meanwhile before the half season started, they were the ones wanting the Leafs to make a trade because in their view, Reimer or Scrivens were not able to play at the NHL level.  There was even a media rumour during the lockout that claimed the Leafs had acquired Luongo for Bozak, another player and one of the Leafs goalie prospects.  The trade was a done deal and would be announced once the lockout was over.

Would love to jettison Bernier in here quickfast, but long term this could ruin Reimers development by creating an even more intense goaltending battle - perhaps an unnecessary.

Unless the consensus is that if we were to get Bernier, there would be no question he would be an upgrade on Reimer. Probably one of the few NHLers I have never seen play or have any frame of reference with. Just always heard the hype.

 

[applecheeks]

I would rather give Scrivens a chance.  If he plays well enough to keep the Leafs in games, there would be no requirement to make a deal for another goalie, and the Leafs need to see what he can actually do.  If on the other hand, Reimer's injury will keep him out of the lineup for a longer than expected period of time, and Scrivens or Rynnas cannot do the job, then I would try to make a deal for a goalie, by obtaining the best goalie available for the lowest price.  What Nonis has done for the Leafs so far has led me to believe I can trust his judgement for now, so I would expect him to make a good move for the Leafs if he was forced to make one. 

It's more of the media wanting the Leafs to make a trade because of Reimer's injury, meanwhile before the half season started, they were the ones wanting the Leafs to make a trade because in their view, Reimer or Scrivens were not able to play at the NHL level.  There was even a media rumour during the lockout that claimed the Leafs had acquired Luongo for Bozak, another player and one of the Leafs goalie prospects.  The trade was a done deal and would be announced once the lockout was over.

Totally agree on all counts. Scrivens needs to play like any other goalie in this league, in order to prove themselves. Sure, backup should be ready in any instance, but Reimer won?t be out too long. 500 hockey would be ok until Riemer gets back between the pipes.

 

[nutman]

I would rather give Scrivens a chance.  If he plays well enough to keep the Leafs in games, there would be no requirement to make a deal for another goalie, and the Leafs need to see what he can actually do.  If on the other hand, Reimer's injury will keep him out of the lineup for a longer than expected period of time, and Scrivens or Rynnas cannot do the job, then I would try to make a deal for a goalie, by obtaining the best goalie available for the lowest price.  What Nonis has done for the Leafs so far has led me to believe I can trust his judgement for now, so I would expect him to make a good move for the Leafs if he was forced to make one. 

It's more of the media wanting the Leafs to make a trade because of Reimer's injury, meanwhile before the half season started, they were the ones wanting the Leafs to make a trade because in their view, Reimer or Scrivens were not able to play at the NHL level.  There was even a media rumour during the lockout that claimed the Leafs had acquired Luongo for Bozak, another player and one of the Leafs goalie prospects.  The trade was a done deal and would be announced once the lockout was over.

Would love to jettison Bernier in here quickfast, but long term this could ruin Reimers development by creating an even more intense goaltending battle - perhaps an unnecessary.

Unless the consensus is that if we were to get Bernier, there would be no question he would be an upgrade on Reimer. Probably one of the few NHLers I have never seen play or have any frame of reference with. Just always heard the hype.

We dont need another goaltender, I think we are going to just fine with the two we have. why toss away spare parts on something we dont need. this team is in a good position for trading, and if we make a deal it wont be in the nets, it will be at center. If at all.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Scrivens now has a lower GAA than Reimer and almost the same Save Percentage...May not seem like it but the stats don't lie..

 

[Kaberle15]

Scrivens now has a lower GAA than Reimer and almost the same Save Percentage...May not seem like it but the stats don't lie..

The problem with Scrivens is when he is out of his net, he takes unnecessary risks in leaving the net like that. Besides that he has been playing good, he has the reins until Reimer gets back.

 

[hockeyfan1]

Scrivens now has a lower GAA than Reimer and almost the same Save Percentage...May not seem like it but the stats don't lie..

The problem with Scrivens is when he is out of his net, he takes unnecessary risks in leaving the net like that. Besides that he has been playing good, he has the reins until Reimer gets back.

That's when I cringed when I saw him (Scrivens) veer way out of his net (in the Ottawa game, for example).  Then again, it makes for an entertaining netminder when that happens.

Scrivens can perhaps be called more of a 'challenger' in this way.  Never saw Reimer do that.  He (Reimer) obviously plays it safe.