Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition

[Frank E]

You make one jerkish throwaway semi true quip and everyone loses their minds...

Sorry for being a jackass, I thought it was clear I was being obtuse for comedic effect.

You live and you learn.

The mods here do an excellent job compared to most cess pools online, anyone having a pop at them is out to lunch.

We have mods here?

My time is mostly spent deleting all of Frank's sub-par posts.

I can back this up, and most of my posts are, and should be, deleted promptly.  Thanks for doing that.

If I can chime in as a long-time super-quality poster here, I think that this is an excellent forum for not only sharing our outsider opinions, but also for learning about new ways to look at the game today.  The cap has made team building increasingly complicated, and some of the newer tracked data and statistics have made conversations about performance (team or individuals) a little more complicated, but also better and more accurate.

Some might long for the days of the game being about just hitting and scoring, and some very easy to understand measurements being the be-all and end-all of debates, but that's not coming back.  Some of the newer measurements will fade away due to practically no predictive value or usefulness, but there'll be new and better data to take its place, due to better technology.  I would also say that most of the more complicated measurements are actually pretty darn interesting.

If you want to just vent an opinion that doesn't really have any basis in fact, no problem, but don't be surprised if someone refutes that.  If you don't like that, then don't read the rebuttal.  I've been creamed around here for some opinions that I've had (usually by people more knowledgeable than I am, which is most of the world), but I choose to read the rebuttals, and learn a little more.  I can still maintain my original opinion, but often, my opinion changes for the "righter" because of better information.  I like that part of the forum, and quite frankly, it's the reason I choose to read and write around here.

I will also say that I really appreciate those around here that use proper grammar and syntax, because this has helped me be a better writer.  That's just an ancillary benefit to reading the posts around here, Carlton's "posts" notwithstanding. 

 

[Bender]

I've probably written about 5 different responses to everything above but honestly I don't have much to say other than I don't think barring a certain type of speech is really beneficial to anybody and the infighting this thread has produced is exactly why I left other boards.

 

[nutman]

Could it be that the truth hurts.

With that being said. lets get back to hockey and Please will everyone stop whining.

I will be unable to watch this game as I have to work.  So I will say it now, we need all skaters on board

 

[louisstamos]

I can back this up, and most of my posts are, and should be, deleted promptly.  Thanks for doing that.

If I can chime in as a long-time super-quality poster here, I think that this is an excellent forum for not only sharing our outsider opinions, but also for learning about new ways to look at the game today.  The cap has made team building increasingly complicated, and some of the newer tracked data and statistics have made conversations about performance (team or individuals) a little more complicated, but also better and more accurate.

Some might long for the days of the game being about just hitting and scoring, and some very easy to understand measurements being the be-all and end-all of debates, but that's not coming back.  Some of the newer measurements will fade away due to practically no predictive value or usefulness, but there'll be new and better data to take its place, due to better technology.  I would also say that most of the more complicated measurements are actually pretty darn interesting.

If you want to just vent an opinion that doesn't really have any basis in fact, no problem, but don't be surprised if someone refutes that.  If you don't like that, then don't read the rebuttal.  I've been creamed around here for some opinions that I've had (usually by people more knowledgeable than I am, which is most of the world), but I choose to read the rebuttals, and learn a little more.  I can still maintain my original opinion, but often, my opinion changes for the "righter" because of better information.  I like that part of the forum, and quite frankly, it's the reason I choose to read and write around here.

I will also say that I really appreciate those around here that use proper grammar and syntax, because this has helped me be a better writer.  That's just an ancillary benefit to reading the posts around here, Carlton's "posts" notwithstanding.

This is a terrific post - I'm someone in the same boat - where I'm trying to get into advance numbers (and do pick up a lot here), but am but no means an expert.  I look up stuff all the time because I'm trying to learn.  But when I want to post something to the effect of "wow, Zaitsev looks bad tonight," I don't really look up the numbers to back it up - I just post it.  If someone challenges it - even with numbers (i.e: "he's plus +2 and has a goal and an assist.  I think he's playing great!") - I don't take it personally.  It doesn't really invalidate how I feel.

I do think everyone on this board does bring something different to the discussion and that's important - whether we agree or disagree.  I know some people are more open to challenging opinions more aggressively than others, but it shouldn't invalidate what they say and what you say.

I will say - I'm not sure if I'm in the *it* crowd people talk about (I don't *think* I am? - I just kind of chime in with a pun or a meme every now and then), but I don't remember any instance of people ganging up on someone with the exception of when that TBLeafer fellow was posting some racist stuff and everyone kind of shut him down.  And that was warranted to me - maybe it's because I'm an outsider on most discussions and just like to read, but that's how I see it.

Anyhoo, here was I was hoping to stay at post #1234 forever, but now that's taken care of.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But when I want to post something to the effect of "wow, Zaitsev looks bad tonight," I don't really look up the numbers to back it up - I just post it.  If someone challenges it - even with numbers (i.e: "he's plus +2 and has a goal and an assist.  I think he's playing great!") - I don't take it personally.  It doesn't really invalidate how I feel.

I'm personally offended that you think anyone in the analytics community would ever stick up for Zaitsev... and with +/- to boot!

 

[louisstamos]

But when I want to post something to the effect of "wow, Zaitsev looks bad tonight," I don't really look up the numbers to back it up - I just post it.  If someone challenges it - even with numbers (i.e: "he's plus +2 and has a goal and an assist.  I think he's playing great!") - I don't take it personally.  It doesn't really invalidate how I feel.

I'm personally offended that you think anyone in the analytics community would ever stick up for Zaitsev... and with +/- to boot!

It was strictly hypothetical.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I can back this up, and most of my posts are, and should be, deleted promptly.  Thanks for doing that.

If I can chime in as a long-time super-quality poster here, I think that this is an excellent forum for not only sharing our outsider opinions, but also for learning about new ways to look at the game today.  The cap has made team building increasingly complicated, and some of the newer tracked data and statistics have made conversations about performance (team or individuals) a little more complicated, but also better and more accurate.

Some might long for the days of the game being about just hitting and scoring, and some very easy to understand measurements being the be-all and end-all of debates, but that's not coming back.  Some of the newer measurements will fade away due to practically no predictive value or usefulness, but there'll be new and better data to take its place, due to better technology.  I would also say that most of the more complicated measurements are actually pretty darn interesting.

If you want to just vent an opinion that doesn't really have any basis in fact, no problem, but don't be surprised if someone refutes that.  If you don't like that, then don't read the rebuttal.  I've been creamed around here for some opinions that I've had (usually by people more knowledgeable than I am, which is most of the world), but I choose to read the rebuttals, and learn a little more.  I can still maintain my original opinion, but often, my opinion changes for the "righter" because of better information.  I like that part of the forum, and quite frankly, it's the reason I choose to read and write around here.

I will also say that I really appreciate those around here that use proper grammar and syntax, because this has helped me be a better writer.  That's just an ancillary benefit to reading the posts around here, Carlton's "posts" notwithstanding.

This is a terrific post - I'm someone in the same boat - where I'm trying to get into advance numbers (and do pick up a lot here), but am but no means an expert.  I look up stuff all the time because I'm trying to learn.  But when I want to post something to the effect of "wow, Zaitsev looks bad tonight," I don't really look up the numbers to back it up - I just post it.  If someone challenges it - even with numbers (i.e: "he's plus +2 and has a goal and an assist.  I think he's playing great!") - I don't take it personally.  It doesn't really invalidate how I feel.

I do think everyone on this board does bring something different to the discussion and that's important - whether we agree or disagree.  I know some people are more open to challenging opinions more aggressively than others, but it shouldn't invalidate what they say and what you say.

I will say - I'm not sure if I'm in the *it* crowd people talk about (I don't *think* I am? - I just kind of chime in with a pun or a meme every now and then), but I don't remember any instance of people ganging up on someone with the exception of when that TBLeafer fellow was posting some racist stuff and everyone kind of shut him down.  And that was warranted to me - maybe it's because I'm an outsider on most discussions and just like to read, but that's how I see it.

Anyhoo, here was I was hoping to stay at post #1234 forever, but now that's taken care of.

Two very good posts right here.

I'm at times probably a little more abrasive here than others, but I think that's just the Scotsman in me, having a heated discourse with a stranger is one of the first signs of a budding friendship for many of my people.

The people that are advocating extremely punitive solutions in this discourse are the ones that maybe need to chill out a bit.

Bottom line is we are all pulling for the Leafs tonight, let's remember we are allies, not enemies.

 

[Zee]

Could it be that the truth hurts.

With that being said. lets get back to hockey and Please will everyone stop whining.

I will be unable to watch this game as I have to work.  So I will say it now, we need all skaters on board

No worries man, just make sure you're not working Wednesday night for game 7.

 

[Frank E]

Two very good posts right here.

I'm at times probably a little more abrasive here than others, but I think that's just the Scotsman in me, having a heated discourse with a stranger is one of the first signs of a budding friendship for many of my people.

The people that are advocating extremely punitive solutions in this discourse are the ones that maybe need to chill out a bit.

Bottom line is we are all pulling for the Leafs tonight, let's remember we are allies, not enemies.

You see that guys?  Carlton?  That's 2 people that thought I made a quality post...BOOM. 

And who knows how many more people also share this opinion, but just haven't written about me yet.  It's probably in the tens. 

And just now, I resisted the temptation to make a quality joke about WIGWAL's wife and who she'll be "pulling" tonight, even though you'll all agree that the joke was right there for the making.  It hurts not to make the joke...hurts bad. 

So obviously I've made an adjustment for the better of the board community.  You're welcome.

 

[leafsjunkie]

I've been here since sometime in the late 90's.

I used to post more, years and years ago, but time doesn't permit me to really type out stuff with the accuracy and details I'd like. There are only so many hours in a day.

Yes, I myself had issues with Nik in the past, but, having time over the years to read almost every post, I can say that Nik is a very smart person, who writes well and seems to be well versed in a lot of area's.

Typing / text, has NO expression, you can't see the persons face or body language. Sometimes it can come across rude or brash or whatever.

I'm sure a lot of times, I was feeling butthurt with Nik's careful and well thought out / written, responses.
But that's on me, for maybe not articulating my point with info and facts and having my weak opinions shoved back.

Also, eye's lie, I like to watch games as much as the next guy, but just because (insert name here) 'Jake Gardiner' makes a mistake during a game (or even two), doesn't make Jake hot garbage that anyone would trade for a bag of pucks, I do like what all these deeper numbers show, analytics are a great thing. There is a reason eye witness accounts aren't the greatest things, people see / interpret things, wrong, a lot of the time.

As well, while watching a game on TV, you are at the mercy of what is being shown, you can not see the entire ice and any developing plays not on camera, it's is deceiving too.

Anyways, just my two cents, if you don't like what someone posted, don't read it all / don't reply, ignore, or you can always reply with your own facts and interpretation and not take offence to someone challenging your opinion. This is what a forum is for.

Just know though, if you post something basic, like the 'leafs at the best and are going to win the cup this year' and they've been awful for a decade, etc... the post is not going to have great responses.

p.s. If you think bar room banter doesn't turn into this type of stuff on the forums, you are crazy. My buddies and I just last week were in heated discussions at the bar, re: old school eye test VS. advanced stats.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Your restraint is really humbling Frank, thank you.

 

[Bender]

Two very good posts right here.

I'm at times probably a little more abrasive here than others, but I think that's just the Scotsman in me, having a heated discourse with a stranger is one of the first signs of a budding friendship for many of my people.

The people that are advocating extremely punitive solutions in this discourse are the ones that maybe need to chill out a bit.

Bottom line is we are all pulling for the Leafs tonight, let's remember we are allies, not enemies.

You see that guys?  Carlton?  That's 2 people that thought I made a quality post...BOOM. 

And who knows how many more people also share this opinion, but just haven't written about me yet.  It's probably in the tens. 

And just now, I resisted the temptation to make a quality joke about WIGWAL's wife and who she'll be "pulling" tonight, even though you'll all agree that the joke was right there for the making.  It hurts not to make the joke...hurts bad. 

So obviously I've made an adjustment for the better of the board community.  You're welcome.

I vote Frank E as our new TMLFans overlord!  ;D

 

[Strangelove]

What I find remarkable on this board is the relative absence of trolling/bullying, so some of the posts in this thread are surprising to me. Compared to Reddit this place is incredibly civilized. It's important not to lose sight of the fact that disagreeing (or even strongly disagreeing) isn't bullying, it's debate.

I also don't find this place to be especially analytics-heavy. I think the main reason readership/comments are disappearing is because message boards themselves are archaic, not because of the types of discussions happening on this board. I'm glad that some people have stuck around, but not surprised that many haven't.

 

[Bender]

What I find remarkable on this board is the relative absence of trolling/bullying, so some of the posts in this thread are surprising to me. Compared to Reddit this place is incredibly civilized. It's important not to lose sight of the fact that disagreeing (or even strongly disagreeing) isn't bullying, it's debate.

I also don't find this place to be especially analytics-heavy. I think the main reason readership/comments are disappearing is because message boards themselves are archaic, not because of the types of discussions happening on this board. I'm glad that some people have stuck around, but not surprised that many haven't.

Yeah I mean everything flows through a larger community like Reddit & Facebook nowadays. I've had to mute a bunch of Leafs ones on Facebook because I felt like I was drowning in TRADE MATTHEWS and MARNER IS TOO WEAK.

 

[Kin]

p.s. If you think bar room banter doesn't turn into this type of stuff on the forums, you are crazy. My buddies and I just last week were in heated discussions at the bar, re: old school eye test VS. advanced stats.

I was going to say...some people here seem to be drinking in really terrible bars.

 

[rdowdall]

I used to post more.  Then I had kids, and those cost money.  Money comes from work.

I like the site,  I like the posters, I think you're all just tense because it's the playoffs.

 

[ZBBM]

I just want to remind everyone that this is the board on which a parody discussion of Tolstoy's Anna Karenina broke out in a GDT thread.  In a playoff GDT thread.

I'm sorry some people aren't feeling welcome to post.  I get a lot of fun out of participating here, and that is the beginning and end of this service's reason for being.  (Thank you again Rick & mods!)  I would just say, if you have had a bad experience in the past, or have always been reluctant to post, give it a try again, or for the first time.  Any online crowd always has the need for fresh voices, and many of them.

 

[sickbeast]

I have absolutely no issue with the analytics or the wealth of data that some of you guys have a lot of knowledge about.  In fact I welcome that.  Herman in particular is knowledgeable to the point that he could easily start working for Sportsnet tomorrow and he would fit right in.  He's generally cool to chat with on here also.  I do find some of his comments here to be troubling, however.

To be honest, and I'm sorry but I can't think of any other way to say this, Nik the Trik is the problem on here and Carlton the Bear is enabling him.  What I find with Nik is that he is extremely condescending and he does not even consider what other people say.  And if you read his responses in this thread, he doesn't even care.  Not only that but I don't even find him very knowledgeable and quite often he is flat out wrong.  This becomes even more frustrating when he doesn't own up to his own mistakes and argues to the bitter end.

TL;DR, I don't have an issue with the "advanced" discussion on here.  What I have issue with is the level of rudeness and abrasiveness paired with the unwillingness of people to listen to others or even consider other points of view.  It's not what's being said that's the problem, it's the way people are going about it.

One thought I did have was to create a "casual" discussion sub-forum where some of us could interact without the condescending BS.

I don't like advocating for people to be banned or for moderation to be changed, however this thread did bring up a legitimate problem and those are the most direct solutions I can think of.

 

[Kin]

Just so people know, this is the sort of thing being referenced:

http://www.tmlfans.ca/community/index.php?topic=3852.msg300572#msg300572

Feel free to read for yourself and decide what's what.

 

[sickbeast]

**Cues Carlton the Bear to pick Nik the Trik's side and enable his trolling further...**