Leafs @ Sharks - Jan. 15th, 10:30pm - TSN, Fan 590

[GhostofPotvin29]

Alright. Time to start shipping out the pending UFAs. Only 5 points out, but, the Rangers also have 4 games in hand. The Leafs are further out of it than the standings make it appear.

So you're finally coming around to believing the problem runs deeper than the coach and the system?

Can you link to where he ever said otherwise?

It may not have been directly stated, but it was certainly insinuated that Carlyle was the biggest issue with this team moving forward.

I've always contented that the blame should be placed more so on the players than the coach. I'm sure you can recall some of our arguments over this topic.

As I recall the gist of the argument has been that the players may not be good enough but that Carlyle's coaching was making it difficult to determine who should stay and who should go and that we needed to see the team for awhile under a better coach to get a better understanding of where the team is at.  It's not saying the players aren't responsible or that the issues don't run deeper than the coach, but that the coaching was so poor that it may be masking the true talent/potential of the roster.

 

[Redleaf]

Alright. I'm not going to open up that whole can of worms again, but it is pretty clear in my memory that the blame of the team's failures was squarely attributed to Carlyle and his system. We had some pretty heated debates over this last year.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Alright. I'm not going to open up that whole can of worms again, but it is pretty clear in my memory that the blame of the team's failures was squarely attributed to Carlyle and his system. We had some pretty heated debates over this last year.

It may not have been directly stated, but it was certainly insinuated that Carlyle was the biggest issue with this team moving forward.

You've summed up the debate in two different ways. Being the only issue and being the biggest issue is not the same thing.

 

[bustaheims]

It may not have been directly stated, but it was certainly insinuated that Carlyle was the biggest issue with this team moving forward.

I've always contented that the blame should be placed more so on the players than the coach. I'm sure you can recall some of our arguments over this topic.

Biggest doesn't mean only. Also, I still feel Carlyle was the biggest issue. Other than last night, the team has played much better since he was removed from behind the bench, they just haven't been getting the results. I'm not surprised by that, either, since I was never expecting an instant turn around. It takes time to learn new systems and find the right balance between the newfound commitment to defence and generating offence. On top of that, trading away UFA players is more about not allowing assets to leave for nothing while the team misses the playoffs again. It's happened too many times over the last few seasons. The team is also not in a good position to commit to more long-term, expensive deals until they can move out a couple that are already here. Our wonderful (mostly former) management group has left the team without a lot of cap space to play with.

 

[bustaheims]

Who's on the list outside of Franson? Winnik, Santorelli and Booth...am I missing any other obvious targets? Reimer is still signed for another year, I believe...

There's definitely some value to be had by moving a couple of them (Franson and Santoerlli would be tops for me).

Bodie, Smith, and Holzer, too, though I don't they garner much of a return. You never know, though. Considering the state of the team and the farm system, I say the more picks, the better. Even if all they get is a 7th rounder for some of the less appealing trade candidates, I'd take it. Franson, Santorelli and Winnik are the obvious priorities, though, as they'll bring back the best return.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'm not convinced that we should trade Franson, but we likely won't have the cap space to keep him anyway and I really do think he'd bring back a boatload, so yeah pull the trigger.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'm not convinced that we should trade Franson, but we likely won't have the cap space to keep him anyway and I really do think he'd bring back a boatload, so yeah pull the trigger.

He's 27 (will be 28 by the time next season starts), having best offensive season of his career, has highest SH% of his career, has half his pts on the PP, isn't particularly fast or great defensively - I say sell high if you can.  Especially considering the cap situation.

Not that I don't think he's been very good and won't be able to replicate, but the Leafs have other offensive D options to give ice time to going forward.

 

[bustaheims]

I'm not convinced that we should trade Franson, but we likely won't have the cap space to keep him anyway and I really do think he'd bring back a boatload, so yeah pull the trigger.

With the cap situation, they just can't afford to commit to any of their UFAs without moving contracts out, and that's going to be very difficult to do in season. Also, while Franson has been better, he's still not a guy I'd want to commit big money to long-term - and looking at some of the other recently signed contracts, I feel like Franson is going to get big big money. Like, ~$6M per on the open market big.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

With the cap situation, they just can't afford to commit to any of their UFAs without moving contracts out, and that's going to be very difficult to do in season. Also, while Franson has been better, he's still not a guy I'd want to commit big money to long-term - and looking at some of the other recently signed contracts, I feel like Franson is going to get big big money. Like, ~$6M per on the open market big.

I think that his previous contract negotiation experiences here show that he would really like to stay, so I think we could get him for under $6mil, which I think is fair. But from what I remember I'm pretty sure I think a little more highly of his defensive game than you do. If we could move out Phaneuf for a good return then I'd be all for re-signing Franson to that type of deal. Otherwise like you said, they really can't afford to keep him.

 

[Deebo]

There are reports out there that Marc Staal is about to sign a 6 year extension at ~5.7M AAV.

I haven't been following Staal's development, but I wouldn't think Franson is worth significantly more than him.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

There are reports out there that Marc Staal is about to sign a 6 year extension at ~5.7M AAV.

I haven't been following Staal's development, but I wouldn't think Franson is worth significantly more than him.

The scary part is that the contract could potentially be a hometown discount.

Although in thinking about it, I expected him to sign with the Canes as a UFA, so who knows, maybe the Rags had to tack on some extra to convince him.

Eric is apparently on the way out there too, right?

Jordan Staal going there has not really worked out, I wonder if he regrets signing that 10 year contract now? Financial security aside, I think the brothers all envisioned winding up there and playing together.

 

[Redleaf]

Alright. I'm not going to open up that whole can of worms again, but it is pretty clear in my memory that the blame of the team's failures was squarely attributed to Carlyle and his system. We had some pretty heated debates over this last year.

It may not have been directly stated, but it was certainly insinuated that Carlyle was the biggest issue with this team moving forward.

You've summed up the debate in two different ways. Being the only issue and being the biggest issue is not the same thing.

No matter which way it gets sliced, biggest issue or only issue, the thinking was clearly wrong. Carlyle wasnt the problem with this team. It is the players, or at least the core group of players, that should take the majority of the blame for the deficiencies of this team.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

There are reports out there that Marc Staal is about to sign a 6 year extension at ~5.7M AAV.

I haven't been following Staal's development, but I wouldn't think Franson is worth significantly more than him.

I think that they're probably roughly on par with each other. Different styles, but both ideally #3 guys who could play on the top pairing if needed. I think Franson would have received a bigger contract because scoring defencemen typically get paid more and because Franson has been on the top pairing this season while Staal has generally always played on NY's 2nd pair.

And New York taking Staal off the market just increases Franson's value on it.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I know the scoreboard says they got manhandled in California, but I still feel somewhat positive going forward. I'm sure they're not making the playoffs, but seeing them play the way or at least attempting to play the way you have to, to be successful in the NHL, has me really excited for the games again.

 

[Redleaf]

I'd really hate to see Franson go, because despite all the issues he's had in previous years, he's really come into his own this season, and has played very well for the most part.

 

[Redleaf]

I know the scoreboard says they got manhandled in California, but I still feel somewhat positive going forward. I'm sure they're not making the playoffs, but seeing them play the way or at least attempting to play the way you have to, to be successful in the NHL, has me really excited for the games again.

Well, if anything positive can come from their recent play, it would be that Shanahan may get a better understanding of which players need to go and which ones can still grow and prosper in Toronto under a more defensive minded system.

 

[Highlander]

How did Frattin play, did he look any better, any sign of the Frattin of two season ago?  I heard Kadri was dreadful so perhaps he is playing thru something??

 

[Bullfrog]

No matter which way it gets sliced, biggest issue or only issue, the thinking was clearly wrong. Carlyle wasnt the problem with this team. It is the players, or at least the core group of players, that should take the majority of the blame for the deficiencies of this team.

What is the basis for your "clearly wrong" statement? The lack of results in the few games since Carlyle's been gone? That's a bit premature, no?

Why can't it be both, the players and Carlyle?

 

[herman]

Alright. I'm not going to open up that whole can of worms again, but it is pretty clear in my memory that the blame of the team's failures was squarely attributed to Carlyle and his system. We had some pretty heated debates over this last year.

It may not have been directly stated, but it was certainly insinuated that Carlyle was the biggest issue with this team moving forward.

You've summed up the debate in two different ways. Being the only issue and being the biggest issue is not the same thing.

No matter which way it gets sliced, biggest issue or only issue, the thinking was clearly wrong. Carlyle wasnt the problem with this team. It is the players, or at least the core group of players, that should take the majority of the blame for the deficiencies of this team.

Sorry Redleaf, I disagree with this statement as his possession statistics have demonstrated with two different organizations and pretty significant roster turnover on the Leafs side. Every player coming into his fold has taken a hit in the metrics that are strongly correlated to long term team success.

Now I do agree with you that our player group is sub-optimal, but when Carlyle was coaching, it was like evaluating them while they were skating with boat anchors around their necks and reverse-bladed sticks.

 

[herman]

How did Frattin play, did he look any better, any sign of the Frattin of two season ago?  I heard Kadri was dreadful so perhaps he is playing thru something??

Frattin outplayed Clarkson, which couldn't be said at the beginning of the season.