pnjunction
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mr grieves said:
Kadri's tough, but when Bozak and JVR as playing like they do sometimes (last night) they look replaceable with Leivo/Marlies today...which is good news for the future I guess.
Looking down the pipeline
- Thread starter mr grieves
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Kadri's tough, but when Bozak and JVR as playing like they do sometimes (last night) they look replaceable with Leivo/Marlies today...which is good news for the future I guess.
Highlander
Active member
Very good article in the Athletic today about Gordeev and Mattinen.
Seems their coaches and G.M's are very high on both of them. Gordeev gets kudos with: "you can't find a 6'7" D man who can skate the way he skates, makes his way into the offensive zone in 3 stride instead of 5-6 most players take". Lots of poise with the puck and great offensive instincts.
Mattinen; 'man, this guy?s got the potential to be an elite level defenseman if everything kind of comes together.'?
Lets hope one of Gordeev, Mattinen or Rasanen make the leap to the big leagues or even better two of them. Imagine two 6'7" guys who can defend and also make offensive contributions. I know this is still 3 years down the road but they have lots of time to develop.
Seems their coaches and G.M's are very high on both of them. Gordeev gets kudos with: "you can't find a 6'7" D man who can skate the way he skates, makes his way into the offensive zone in 3 stride instead of 5-6 most players take". Lots of poise with the puck and great offensive instincts.
Mattinen; 'man, this guy?s got the potential to be an elite level defenseman if everything kind of comes together.'?
Lets hope one of Gordeev, Mattinen or Rasanen make the leap to the big leagues or even better two of them. Imagine two 6'7" guys who can defend and also make offensive contributions. I know this is still 3 years down the road but they have lots of time to develop.
herman
Well-known member
Highlander said:
They didn't seem like 'homerun swings' when drafted, e.g. not sneaky analytics picks of high production at low stature, but the super tall defensemen that we've been drafting can be considered 'market inefficiency' picks, in that they are low production, high stature. The low production part bugs us spreadsheet trawlers, but the scouting department was deliberately looking for players underperforming due to circumstance rather than ability. Targeting pillars that can skate and are puck smart is the key, and we're not necessarily looking for them to product directly anyway.
Whether or not these picks work out that way or not is up to those players and our dev staff. Getting even one of the picks from these past three seasons to be a pseudo-Parayko would be huge.
Edit: that said, it still would've been really nice to see a Samuel Girard-like pick or three in there too. The Liljegren pick was a gift and stroke of luck.
Highlander
Active member
I know how down we are on our D but when Dermott and Lilgegren take their place with Reilly, Gardiner, Zaitzev and Hainsey it looks a lot more promising.
Coco-puffs
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Highlander said:
Well, I'm not sure I'd pencil in Liljegren in our lineup next year. I wouldn't be surprised if he requires another year of development. For the rest of this year and next year we should be able to trot out:
Rielly - Hainsey/Dermott
Gardiner - Zaitsev
Borgman - Dermott/Hainsey
Hainsey and Gardiner have only 1 more season left. Hainsey is a very long shot to still be a useful defender at 38 yrs old. Gardiner may be a cap casualty. Assuming both of them aren't here:
Rielly - Liljegren
Dermott - Zaitsev
Borgman - X
is where we sit two years from now. We don't really have any other D-men I think are more than long-shots to make it to the show. That lineup above is really stacked with offensive d-men and probably requires someone who's strong defensively, mobile, can make the right play quickly, and is preferably a right shot.
Coco-puffs said:
herman
Well-known member
Coco-puffs said:
I think Dermott is the new modern defensive defenseman. He checks all your boxes here except for handedness, plus he can chip in offense (it's a pretty heavy wrist/snap shot he fires very quickly). He is pretty crazy strong for his size (the Marlies dev staff had to get him to lean back down for mobility, according to Bourne), but lacks natural wingspan. He makes up for it in his skating and uncomfortably tight gap control, i.e. breaking up plays early before box out strength is required. Borgman is similar in specifications but is far more raw than Dermott in defensive instincts, and not as elusive on his skates (Borgman prefers to go through, rather than around).
I too see Liljegren staying in the AHL next season and getting the same development diet Dermott and Rielly received (matchup defense + PK1), a) to see if he has 1D capability, b) to sneakily show Babcock/DJ Smith that PK can be done with skill too, rather than just brute strength.
Coco-puffs
New member
herman said:
I agree that Dermott is likely going to be one of our better defensive defensemen. Still need more in that lineup. I'm not expecting Liljegren to become more than decent defensively while probably being one of our two PP d-men (with Rielly) and essentially replacing Gardiner's play (hopefully last year's version).
Highlander
Active member
Just looking at an article in the Athletic about what prospects teams can offer up in possible trades. Of course when it came to the Leafs the names that came up could be expected like Johnsen and Lindgren but what interests me is that "a lot of scouts are buzzing about Fedor Gordeev"
Nice to hear, one would expect it to be Rasanen
Nice to hear, one would expect it to be Rasanen
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Gordeev moves much better than Rasanen.
Gordeev is exciting because he is a huge dman that is quick, if he can round out his defensive game, he will be a top prospect.
He's still learning about gap control and other defensive fundamentals for now though.
Gordeev is exciting because he is a huge dman that is quick, if he can round out his defensive game, he will be a top prospect.
He's still learning about gap control and other defensive fundamentals for now though.
Highlander
Active member
pretty exciting to think of having one huge great skating defensemen in a few years. Even better if one of the others develops into anything.WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Yeah, remember Jake Gardiner is a success story of a forward transitioning to D and yet he is an absolute bomb scare in his own end.
Gordeev has a long way to go to even be half as good as Gardiner, but the raw skills he possesses are exciting when you consider his size.
Gordeev has a long way to go to even be half as good as Gardiner, but the raw skills he possesses are exciting when you consider his size.
Highlander
Active member
Exactly, this is all potential which the Leaf organization seems to excel at developing. We are now #1 in the development field no doubt. I remember seeing Gardiner 6 years ago already in Tampa scoring a couple and feeding Lombardi for a beaut and thinking this is the next great one. But you are right on the defensive blunders, seems to be like a mice in maze (for the first time) in his own end behind the dots. Puzzling playerWhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
Highlander
Active member
I think some people are just naturals, look at that African American girl who just started speed skating two years ago at 16 and is an Olympian at 18.
Greg Norman started golfing when he was 18, which is unbelievable for us that know that game intimately. Lets hope switching Gordeev to D was someones Svengali move.
Greg Norman started golfing when he was 18, which is unbelievable for us that know that game intimately. Lets hope switching Gordeev to D was someones Svengali move.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
It's part of why I am a big proponent of moving the pending UFA's, if they can get another 1st somehow they'd have 4 picks in the top 60 and that's not to mention the rest of the potential return.
Strangelove
New member
I really don't understand the criticism of Gardiner in his own end. He gives it away periodically (as all defenceman do) but his gap control and positioning are strong, which is probably why the Leafs get a lot more shots than the other team while he is on the ice.
The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.
The real defensive problems are the likes of Zaitsev and Polak, who are positionally wonky and often blindly fire it away when they do manage to get control.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Strangelove said:
You're right that Gardiner is a net positive and is of huge value to the team.
However, if you don't see that Gardiner is prone to the "big mistake" more than most other dman of his caliber/lineup slot, you are either lying, blind or not watching enough hockey aside from the Leafs.
I love Gardiner, but it's a love-hate relationship at times.
herman
Well-known member
Frank E said:
That's one perspective.
The other is that we've hit on some recent first rounders and they've largely bypassed the CHL and made the jump to pros.
Liljegren: AHL
Matthews: NHL
Marner: Junior --> NHL
Nylander: SHL --> AHL x2 --> NHL
Our key middle draft picks from the CHL have mostly graduated (Timashov, Dzierkals, Dermott, Bracco, Brooks), or are still slow developing big D-men (Middleton, Mattinen, Desrocher (bye), Gordeev, Rasanen).
Our other depth picks are NCAA or Euro-league players who are developing slightly out of sight/out of mind and have a good deal more run-way before we have to make any contractual decisions. So yeah, the pipeline isn't sexy right now, but that's mostly because a lot of that sex appeal is already in Toronto.