Lou Lamoriello named Leafs General Manager

[bustaheims]

Oh yeah, sure, I don't have a problem with it at all. But going back to what Nik's original point was, asking how it's going to work is a completely fair question. Everything is set up in theory to succeed, but what about in real life?

Next offseason when it comes to re-signing or trading Kadri, there's very little chance that all 5 of the big names in our group will agree on what to do with him. Imagine trying to find 5 random posters here who all agree on what to do with Kadri/Gardiner/Bernier. It's almost impossible. So how are they going to settle that? Will each person get a single vote? Does Lou's vote count for more since he's technically the GM? If Dubas is being groomed to be the next GM shouldn't his vote count for more since he'll be the one more effected by it in 3-5 years? What's the arrangement with Babcock, he isn't technically a member of the front office so how more value does his voice have in that?

Again, I really like the group of guys that we have here. But their biggest test has yet to come, that's all.

I think, ultimately, in situations like this, all the potential options will have to be put on the table (with things like legitimate trade offers they've received, Kadri's contract demands, etc.) and they'll have to put their individual preferences aside and figure out  what move is most in line with the larger vision for the team and what's best for the team. I think, at the end, it'll be Shanahan calling the shots if there's no sort of agreement among LL, Dubas and Hunter. I feel like he'll be taking more of a backseat on everything but the really big deals (like potentially trading Phaneuf, for instance, he has ultimate approval of any move. They do still have to work to execute his vision, after all. I don't think Babcock's going to get a vote, per se. It's more like his opinion is going to be taken under consideration in terms of trades and signings. Where Babcock will have a large influence will be for things like who comes up from the minors.

 

[herman]

That's a very good example. My hot take would be that it's a Lamoriello call to make.

Ah. Well, that's something we may just have to disagree on because I don't for a second think that would be Lamoriello making that decision.

I'd love to hear your point of view on this (and anyone else's). It's a very interesting discussion.

I see it the way I do based on how the Draft was run without a GM. Hunter was given the drafting ball, Dubas the trade ball, and the goal was to feed Mark more drafts picks. Even though there was a lot of discussion about who to take at 4, it clearly went Hunter's way in the end because he was entrusted with the project. These guys were hired for a reason and I think Shanahan is going to deploy them accordingly.

 

[rdowdall]

Maybe it's because I work in a similar collaborative structure, but the overlap is not a point of contention for me, but an area where members of the team can contribute useful tension to the decision. It looks like just about every major decision will be made with relevant consultation (not voting per se) but the decision will be owned by the head of the department.

That doesn't clear things up. Like CtB said above is signing Kadri a question for the "NHL team" department? The "Team Management" department? The "Salary Cap" department? If Lamoriello wants Kadri and Babcock doesn't, what happens?

What good does Dubas being in charge of analytics do if he presents information on, say, Kadri that are super-favourable but Lamoriello thinks he negatively affects the "team culture"? What happens when there are meaningful and significant disagreements?

Just saying "well, they'll collaborate" actively avoids that question.

But didn't they already go through this to a degree at the draft with Marner?  Rumour was some wanted Hannifin, and Hunter wanted Marner.  At the end of the day they drafted Marner.  So if there was a conflict, they seemed to resolve it without things falling apart.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But didn't they already go through this to a degree at the draft with Marner?  Rumour was some wanted Hannifin, and Hunter wanted Marner.  At the end of the day they drafted Marner.  So if there was a conflict, they seemed to resolve it without things falling apart.

As far as conflicts go that was a pretty easy one to solve (assuming the reported conflict was even true). I don't even think that it was necessarily that Babcock wanted Hanifin over Marner, but that he wanted a big number 1 defenceman over a smaller skilled centre. But I don't think he exactly knew enough about both individuals to make a call like that. So in that situation it's pretty easy to take the opinion of the guy whose been scouting these players all season longer over the coach who obviously hasn't made scouting his priority.

We don't know exactly the extent of Babcock's influence but I think that busta's right in saying that his opinion will be sought more for players within the system as opposed to players outside of it. That's why I bring up the bigger question of what happens to Nazem Kadri, because next offseason both him and Lou will have first-hand experience with him.

 

[Kin]

I see it the way I do based on how the Draft was run without a GM.

So do I. If whoever was eventually going to get to put "GM" on their business card would have the kind of swing in the organization you're saying, and let's be real re-signing Kadri is going to be a pretty significant deal, then I don't for a second believe that hiring a GM would have been backburnered to after the draft, especially when the Leafs not only had the Kessel trade(and the potential for other major trades) going on but also figured to be pretty active come free agency(albeit, not particularly significantly).

To me, that's a pretty clear indication that they were comfortable making decisions relating to the NHL club and it's make-up without Lamoriello and it's pretty hard for me to buy that they had the set-up they did and then decided to cede that to a guy who, and let's be real, we all assume has one foot out the door anyway.

So I'm pretty confident that Lamoriello might be the point man on negotiations, he might be the guy who calls another GM to talk a trade but actually making those decisions? Like I said, if they wanted a GM to have that kind of power then hiring that person would, or at least should, have been priority #1 this off-season.

 

[Kin]

But didn't they already go through this to a degree at the draft with Marner?  Rumour was some wanted Hannifin, and Hunter wanted Marner.  At the end of the day they drafted Marner.  So if there was a conflict, they seemed to resolve it without things falling apart.

Disputes like that will be relatively easy to solve when everyone is fresh in and on the same page. When Babcock was hired he said Hunter was the guy running the draft so it seems pretty unlikely that he'd look to usurp that a few weeks later.

What I'm talking about is when the weather gets choppy and the decisions we're talking about aren't ones where everyone is more or less happy with any of the outcomes(Hunter may have preferred Marner and Babcock may have preferred Hanifin but I doubt either guy would have hated taking the guy they liked a little bit less).

What if the dispute is "Kadri's terrible for the locker room" vs. "His numbers are great and we can re-sign him at a good deal"? What if Marner is a bust, fans are restless with a lack of progress and they face a similar draft dispute?

Again, it's like asking newlyweds to solve a problem vs. a couple on the rocks. Saying that things went smooth right now doesn't really answer the hypothetical of what might happen down the road.

 

[herman]

I see it the way I do based on how the Draft was run without a GM.

So do I. If whoever was eventually going to get to put "GM" on their business card would have the kind of swing in the organization you're saying, and let's be real re-signing Kadri is going to be a pretty significant deal, then I don't for a second believe that hiring a GM would have been backburnered to after the draft, especially when the Leafs not only had the Kessel trade(and the potential for other major trades) going on but also figured to be pretty active come free agency(albeit, not particularly significantly).

To me, that's a pretty clear indication that they were comfortable making decisions relating to the NHL club and it's make-up without Lamoriello and it's pretty hard for me to buy that they had the set-up they did and then decided to cede that to a guy who, and let's be real, we all assume has one foot out the door anyway.

So I'm pretty confident that Lamoriello might be the point man on negotiations, he might be the guy who calls another GM to talk a trade but actually making those decisions? Like I said, if they wanted a GM to have that kind of power then hiring that person would, or at least should, have been priority #1 this off-season.

That's a great point. So it's more like Lamoriello is the face of the decision (I recall calling him the insta-cachet of the group upon his signing), but it's really Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter's voices that will stir the drink on the more major decisions? Like Lamoriello might just be the training wheels for the actual management team?

 

[bustaheims]

To me, that's a pretty clear indication that they were comfortable making decisions relating to the NHL club and it's make-up without Lamoriello and it's pretty hard for me to buy that they had the set-up they did and then decided to cede that to a guy who, and let's be real, we all assume has one foot out the door anyway.

So I'm pretty confident that Lamoriello might be the point man on negotiations, he might be the guy who calls another GM to talk a trade but actually making those decisions? Like I said, if they wanted a GM to have that kind of power then hiring that person would, or at least should, have been priority #1 this off-season.

To me, it really looks like Lou was brought in so Shanahan could take a step back and not have to be as involved in negotiations as I get the impression he was with things like the Kessel deal. However, I do think Lamoriello is going to be given a fair degree of autonomy. He'll have to work within the vision set out by Shanahan, but he'll be making the decisions on the specifics - especially when it comes to more established NHL pieces. Dubas and Hunter are more knowledgeable when it comes to prospects and such, and Lou will likely rely pretty heavily on them in that area. I think that's a big part of why the team was comfortable going forward with moves with a clear GM - the major moves were largely prospect focused on the Leafs' end and involved players that the new GM would have been directed to move any way, and the free agents were short-term pieces. So, yeah, it was business as usual, but it wasn't like they were making a ton of major long-term, team building type moves. They mostly made caretaking type transactions this summer.

 

[Kin]

That's a great point. So it's more like Lamoriello is the face of the decision (I recall calling him the insta-cachet of the group upon his signing), but it's really Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter's voices that will stir the drink on the more major decisions? Like Lamoriello might just be the training wheels for the actual management team?

Well, what I was kind of trying to get across in the post that started all of this is that I don't know the answer to these questions(and even then saying something will be Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter's decision isn't exactly all that clear regardless). It sounds like the plan is for everything to be collaboratively arrived at more or less but, and this is sort of the main thrust of what I'm saying, that doesn't strike me as being all that realistic in a long-term situation that figures to have ups and downs.

So Lamoriello figures to be another voice in the process but that's a very different thing when everyone's on the same page then it might be at a more discordant point in the future.

 

[Kin]

So, yeah, it was business as usual, but it wasn't like they were making a ton of major long-term, team building type moves. They mostly made caretaking type transactions this summer.

Except, realistically, how many moves like that figure to get made between now and when Lamoriello's contract is up? They'll have to do things like re-sign Rielly although that's just a dollar figure negotiation. If they are rebuilding, it's not like they're going to be adding a bunch of established NHL pieces beyond things like what they did in free agency.

I mean, just as a hypothetical, lets say that Stamkos does make it to free agency and wants to be a Leaf. Let's also say that he does so after a kind of disappointing year(relatively) that lends some weight to the argument that he isn't going to be the same player he was pre-injury.

Does Lamoriello make the decision to pursue him and, you have to assume, drastically change the plan going forward? I don't think that's true for a second. I think that decision is Shanahan's and Shanahan's alone.

 

[Frank E]

So Lamoriello figures to be another voice in the process but that's a very different thing when everyone's on the same page then it might be at a more discordant point in the future.

Yeah, at this point, there really aren't any performance expectations out of the roster.

In a couple of years, that'll be a different story, and that's likely when things get a little more stressful.

 

[Kin]

Yeah, at this point, there really aren't any performance expectations out of the roster.

In a couple of years, that'll be a different story, and that's likely when things get a little more stressful.

Exactly. Four years from now and things are going slower than expected and Mike Babcock is reading articles everyday that say he's clearly not the genius people thought he was...how cool is he then with getting overruled?

But, and I can't stress this enough, my original post was saying there's no way to know the answers to questions like that and I'm more or less ok with that.

 

[bustaheims]

Except, realistically, how many moves like that figure to get made between now and when Lamoriello's contract is up? They'll have to do things like re-sign Rielly although that's just a dollar figure negotiation. If they are rebuilding, it's not like they're going to be adding a bunch of established NHL pieces beyond things like what they did in free agency.

I mean, just as a hypothetical, lets say that Stamkos does make it to free agency and wants to be a Leaf. Let's also say that he does so after a kind of disappointing year(relatively) that lends some weight to the argument that he isn't going to be the same player he was pre-injury.

Does Lamoriello make the decision to pursue him and, you have to assume, drastically change the plan going forward? I don't think that's true for a second. I think that decision is Shanahan's and Shanahan's alone.

I think there's the possibility of going after some younger but established players. Guys coming off their ELCs and such, and I think that's where Lamoriello would be really taking the lead in terms of strategy and negotiations and such. There's also going to be some moving younger players out to get similar aged players who play different positions. It's going to largely be on Lamoriello's shoulders as to whether or not to pursue those opportunities, and whether the cost of those moves is worth it for the team. Shanahan's still going to be developing the big picture and will be the guy who makes decisions on Stamkos level moves, yeah, but everything that falls between that and drafting/which prospects to target will fall on Lou - and there's a lot that falls in there.

 

[Kin]

I think there's the possibility of going after some younger but established players. Guys coming off their ELCs and such, and I think that's where Lamoriello would be really taking the lead in terms of strategy and negotiations and such. There's also going to be some moving younger players out to get similar aged players who play different positions. It's going to largely be on Lamoriello's shoulders as to whether or not to pursue those opportunities, and whether the cost of those moves is worth it for the team. Shanahan's still going to be developing the big picture and will be the guy who makes decisions on Stamkos level moves, yeah, but everything that falls between that and drafting/which prospects to target will fall on Lou - and there's a lot that falls in there.

I just don't think the moves you're talking about are really going to be part of the agenda within the next three years. I think the sorts of moves you're talking about, like say the Sabres trading for O'Reilly, are the sorts of moves that a team makes once they've got the big pieces in place and that's really not likely to happen before Lamoriello's contract is up.

And honestly, I think that if the general perception was that Lamoriello is going to have that big a hand in shaping the roster, then reaction to his hiring would have been a lot more "Really?" than "Meh".

 

[Highlander]

Isn't it great to sit here with this management team in place and everyone seeming like cogs in a fine swiss time peace.  Think back to two years ago when Burke was fired and Nonis was hiring the Dave Five Clarkson for amost 6 mill a year. Pinch me if I wake up.
I like everything the Leafs have done since the end of the season. Everything now seems to be making sense. Its exciting times in Leaf land.

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Isn't it great to sit here with this management team in place and everyone seeming like cogs in a fine swiss time peace.  Think back to two years ago when Burke was fired and Nonis was hiring the Dave Five Clarkson for amost 6 mill a year. Pinch me if I wake up.
I like everything the Leafs have done since the end of the season. Everything now seems to be making sense. Its exciting times in Leaf land.

 

[Highlander]

Man that looks just like me,???. no the guy with the pointy ears. Live long and prosper

 

[hockeyfan1]

May you all "Live long and prosper!"