Lou Lamoriello named Leafs General Manager

[Joe S.]

Is it just me or did his answers come across as annoyance to almost every question? I got the impression that he'd start every answer with 'well this is a stupid question and I don't know what you mean however....'

 

[herman]

Is it just me or did his answers come across as annoyance to almost every question? I got the impression that he'd start every answer with 'well this is a stupid question and I don't know what you mean however....'

I heard it like that.

"Firstly, I know you're trying to bait me with something inflammatory to cause a semblance of conflict, but this is how it actually is because we are professionals."

 

[slapshot]

Well, the one question by Feswick I think was certainly insulting when he mentioned the "big egos" of Babcock, Lou and Shanahan, repeatedly. I mean that's pretty rude really. I am sure Lou can wait to grant his next interview.

 

[rdowdall]

Right now there are pretty legitimate questions to ask about how this unconventional management structure will deal with conflict. The problem is the only insight we can really gain on that is by asking the people involved and asking that question to the people involved is a little like asking "How will you two settle a custody dispute" to a couple of newlyweds. Right now everything's rosy, so in their minds everything in the future can be reasonably worked out with everyone getting on the same page.

I agree it's a concern, but that's probably a concern with any organization.  I think the only two differences between the Leafs organization and others are:

1.  The coach has a lot of pull.
2.  The assistant GM is being groomed for the main job, and that's been thrown out their.

Other than that, the Leafs structure is in line with others in that their is a known chain of command.

 

[Highlander]

Lou does not suffer fools and he is obviously a reader of Epictitus.  He mentions a lot about what he can control and doesn't concern himself at all with what he can't control.  This is classic Stoic thinking.
The problem was Sun fellows were asking a lot of questions about what he can't control so he may have come off as aloof but I didnt see it that way. 

 

[Kin]

I agree it's a concern, but that's probably a concern with any organization.  I think the only two differences between the Leafs organization and others are:

1.  The coach has a lot of pull.
2.  The assistant GM is being groomed for the main job, and that's been thrown out their.

Other than that, the Leafs structure is in line with others in that their is a known chain of command.

I disagree. For starters, I think you're leaving out the most significant difference which is there being a separate GM and President of Hockey Operations. More to the point though, your point #2 sort of glosses over the relative lack of importance the GM has within the organization. In a typical organization the power structure would probably be:

Shanahan - Lamoriello(although he and Shanahan would probably be the same person) - Babcock - Hunter/Dubas

But here it's probably more along the lines of:

Shanahan - Babcock - Hunter/Dubas - Lamoriello

 

[bustaheims]

I disagree. For starters, I think you're leaving out the most significant difference which is there being a separate GM and President of Hockey Operations. More to the point though, your point #2 sort of glosses over the relative lack of importance the GM has within the organization. In a typical organization the power structure would probably be:

The Leafs aren't the only team with that setup, though. It may not be the most common organizational structure, but it's one where there's some established parameters.

 

[Kin]

The Leafs aren't the only team with that setup, though. It may not be the most common organizational structure, but it's one where there's some established parameters.

Sure but, off the top of my head, in most other situations like that you'll have a President who's the experienced older one and the GM as the younger guy running the day to day of things.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Leafs have an un-fireable head coach who wants to be involved in front office decisions and two assistant GMs that will likely have more sway with the President of Hockey Operations than the actual GM will.

I think it's pretty safe to call this situation unconventional/unique.

 

[Frank E]

The Leafs have an un-fireable head coach who wants to be involved in front office decisions and two assistant GMs that will likely have more sway with the President of Hockey Operations than the actual GM will.

I think it's pretty safe to call this situation unconventional/unique.

I think that's probably fair.  I see it as more of a "Management by committee", but there are certainly going to be disagreements.  I just hope that the structure in place has a mechanism to deal with that so that they all don't get bent out of shape when someone doesn't get their way.  I would bet that when there's disagreement in the crowded room, Shanahan makes the call.

 

[herman]

Everyone's got a different role at the table, so I see them at the same level under Shanahan. Hierarchy isn't much a concern from my interpretation of their managerial structure. Each person probably gets the final call on decisions pertaining to his department and everyone chips in with their expertise where possible.

Shanahan: Oversight, interface with the Board/Owners, Face of the Franchise

Lamoriello: NHL team management + transactions, team 'culture'
Babcock: NHL team, developing coaching strategy down the organization chain
Dubas: AHL GM + feeder team management and transactions; Analytics R&D
Hunter: Scouting, Development/Bioscience teams (probably pointman on the Draft going forward)
Pridham: Salary cap management

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think it's pretty safe to call this situation unconventional/unique.

And to that I say: good.

 

[Kin]

Shanahan: Oversight, interface with the Board/Owners, Face of the Franchise

Lamoriello: NHL team management + transactions, team 'culture'
Babcock: NHL team, developing coaching strategy down the organization chain
Dubas: AHL GM + feeder team management and transactions; Analytics R&D
Hunter: Scouting, Development/Bioscience teams (probably pointman on the Draft going forward)
Pridham: Salary cap management

I really don't understand how you don't see a ton of overlap there.

 

[bustaheims]

The Leafs have an un-fireable head coach who wants to be involved in front office decisions and two assistant GMs that will likely have more sway with the President of Hockey Operations than the actual GM will.

I think it's pretty safe to call this situation unconventional/unique.

As I suppose is typical with our generation, this word brought to mind a quote from the Simpsons. "The word 'un-blow-up-able' gets thrown around a lot these days . . ."

 

[CarltonTheBear]

And to that I say: good.

Oh yeah, sure, I don't have a problem with it at all. But going back to what Nik's original point was, asking how it's going to work is a completely fair question. Everything is set up in theory to succeed, but what about in real life?

Next offseason when it comes to re-signing or trading Kadri, there's very little chance that all 5 of the big names in our group will agree on what to do with him. Imagine trying to find 5 random posters here who all agree on what to do with Kadri/Gardiner/Bernier. It's almost impossible. So how are they going to settle that? Will each person get a single vote? Does Lou's vote count for more since he's technically the GM? If Dubas is being groomed to be the next GM shouldn't his vote count for more since he'll be the one more effected by it in 3-5 years? What's the arrangement with Babcock, he isn't technically a member of the front office so how more value does his voice have in that?

Again, I really like the group of guys that we have here. But their biggest test has yet to come, that's all.

 

[herman]

Shanahan: Oversight, interface with the Board/Owners, Face of the Franchise

Lamoriello: NHL team management + transactions, team 'culture'
Babcock: NHL team, developing coaching strategy down the organization chain
Dubas: AHL GM + feeder team management and transactions; Analytics R&D
Hunter: Scouting, Development/Bioscience teams (probably pointman on the Draft going forward)
Pridham: Salary cap management

I really don't understand how you don't see a ton of overlap there.

Maybe it's because I work in a similar collaborative structure, but the overlap is not a point of contention for me, rather it's an area where members of the team can contribute useful tension to the decision. It looks like just about every major decision will be made with relevant consultation (not voting per se) but the decision will be owned by the head of the department.

 

[cabber24]

I see the overlap and although the individuals listed are impressive I wish it was more simplified. To many cooks in the kitchen. Hopefully it really is a Dubas grooming and nothing more.

 

[Kin]

Maybe it's because I work in a similar collaborative structure, but the overlap is not a point of contention for me, but an area where members of the team can contribute useful tension to the decision. It looks like just about every major decision will be made with relevant consultation (not voting per se) but the decision will be owned by the head of the department.

That doesn't clear things up. Like CtB said above is signing Kadri a question for the "NHL team" department? The "Team Management" department? The "Salary Cap" department? If Lamoriello wants Kadri and Babcock doesn't, what happens?

What good does Dubas being in charge of analytics do if he presents information on, say, Kadri that are super-favourable but Lamoriello thinks he negatively affects the "team culture"? What happens when there are meaningful and significant disagreements?

Just saying "well, they'll collaborate" actively avoids that question.

 

[herman]

Maybe it's because I work in a similar collaborative structure, but the overlap is not a point of contention for me, but an area where members of the team can contribute useful tension to the decision. It looks like just about every major decision will be made with relevant consultation (not voting per se) but the decision will be owned by the head of the department.

That doesn't clear things up. Like CtB said above is signing Kadri a question for the "NHL team" department? The "Team Management" department? The "Salary Cap" department? If Lamoriello wants Kadri and Babcock doesn't, what happens?

What good does Dubas being in charge of analytics do if he presents information on, say, Kadri that are super-favourable but Lamoriello thinks he negatively affects the "team culture"? What happens when there are meaningful and significant disagreements?

Just saying "well, they'll collaborate" actively avoids that question.

That's a very good example. My hot take would be that it's a Lamoriello call to make.
Babcock is running the operation of the roster, not transactions or the component build; while his voice is important, he'll merely be a consultant on the matter the same way Dubas' analytic results would be a consultation point, the same way Pridham and Hunter would help valuate potential returns in a trade scenario in cap cost and talent potential. Every decision comes with pros and cons, so that's nothing new to anyone.

 

[Kin]

That's a very good example. My hot take would be that it's a Lamoriello call to make.

Ah. Well, that's something we may just have to disagree on because I don't for a second think that would be Lamoriello making that decision.