Maple Leafs are better, but are they a playoff team?
- Thread starter cw
- Start date
bustaheims
Active member
Mike1 said:
Improved itself from what? The team that sucked through December or the team that played at a 98 point pace over the final 46 games of the season? If you're talking about the former, that's just preposterous - they could have done nothing to compliment the moves they made in season, and they'd already be a better team. If you're talking about the later, then, yeah, maybe, but, that's still an argument I feel you'd come out on the losing side of. Whether they improved themselves enough in comparison to their competition is certainly in question, but, there's no doubt in my mind that they've improved their talent level and their compete level from where they were last season.
Bullfrog
Active member
No assets lost; improvement on our top centre position; addition of a decent defenseman in Franson. How is the team not improved?
I think entertaining an argument about the degree of the improvement would be ok, but I can't even consider that the team hasn't improved at least a little bit.
I think entertaining an argument about the degree of the improvement would be ok, but I can't even consider that the team hasn't improved at least a little bit.
Kin
New member
Bullfrog said:
I think the problem, as Busta kind of points out, is that everyone may have a different starting point where they're trying to measure improvement from. Some people are going to be looking at whether or not the Leafs have improved on where they were at the end of last year, some are going to use the year as a whole and just average it out and some are going to just focus on how bad they were at the beginning.
I think what I ask when I look at whether or not they've improved is whether or not I look at this team and think they're going to be better than an 85 point team. Personally, I'm torn on all that but it all boils down to Reimer really.
Saint Nik said:
Reimer's obviously a very key part of the outsome.
I think the forwards are improved.
But I'm not confident in how the D will turn out.
Franson, who I think has been over-hyped a little, can't be anything but an improvement on Lebda. But will Liles bring more than Kaberle? I'll be delighted if he does as well. Schenn will be challenged to play as well without Kaberle. Can Aulie do better than Beauchemin over a full season? Naturally, I'm hoping for that but I wonder. On the upside, they're young and therefore, have potential to improve but with some youth like Aulie who may experience a step back. I don't know if they'll be better, worse or about the same.
Busta Reims said:
They got rid of Kaberle & brought in Liles. Which to me is a sideways move. Similar players with similar strengths & weaknesses. They brought in Connolly who is injury prone. They trade Lebda for Franson which in theory should be an upgrade but when it comes to defence you can never be sure. I dont think this team has really upgraded its talent level at all. They traded average players & brought in average players to fill the roles of the players they traded. Wheres the upgrade? Similar talent level, similar results.
The upcoming season is going to be one of 'if's' for the Leafs. Of course, every season is like that to some degree.
I'm not really putting any stock in the Leafs performance in the second half of last season. After all, how many seasons in a row now have the Leafs made a bit of a push down the stretch? The one encouraging sign I will take is that it was a younger team doing it last year.
Connolly and Lombardi could really help shore up the Leafs at center and buy time for Colborne and whoever else might become a top centerman to develop. Can they stay healthy? Phaneuf appeared to be finding his game again. Can he keep it up? Will the 'looks good on paper' defense become a team strength? Can promising youngsters like Reimer and Kadri make significant contributions? Is there anyone in the system who might be surprisingly ahead of the development curve?
These are some of the many questions I have going into next season. The Leafs have upgraded their roster, but have they improved relative to other teams who have also done so? The biggest question might be, can Ron Wilson get the most out of this team? I've pretty much given him a pass to this point, but I think he's now officially on the hot seat.
I'm not really putting any stock in the Leafs performance in the second half of last season. After all, how many seasons in a row now have the Leafs made a bit of a push down the stretch? The one encouraging sign I will take is that it was a younger team doing it last year.
Connolly and Lombardi could really help shore up the Leafs at center and buy time for Colborne and whoever else might become a top centerman to develop. Can they stay healthy? Phaneuf appeared to be finding his game again. Can he keep it up? Will the 'looks good on paper' defense become a team strength? Can promising youngsters like Reimer and Kadri make significant contributions? Is there anyone in the system who might be surprisingly ahead of the development curve?
These are some of the many questions I have going into next season. The Leafs have upgraded their roster, but have they improved relative to other teams who have also done so? The biggest question might be, can Ron Wilson get the most out of this team? I've pretty much given him a pass to this point, but I think he's now officially on the hot seat.
Chev-boyar-sky
New member
Mike1 said:
So there first is a sideways move. Check. The team should be similarly as good with Liles.
Connolly is injury prone. Check. This means he'll miss 15-30 games while still producing at a better clip than Bozak last year. That's a pretty safe bet for an improvement.
Franson should be better than Lebda. Check. He was better than him last year, so it stands to reason he should be better this year. That's the second improvement.
Other things that could improve are: Bozak playing on a more suitable line, One of the younger teams in the NHL improving with age, Reimer playing a whole season, A healthy Gus, some surprise players from the Marlies.
I'm not saying they're one of the most improved teams in the league or anything, but to say they've done nothing is a bit over dramatic.
Mike1 said:
Kaberle and a 2nd for Liles, Biggs and a conditional draft pick, that's slightly in Toronto's favor and Connolly is better than Bozak for free, injuries or no...... no talent loss. Addition by subtraction ( and proper spending per Saint Juno Monikta ) Franson and anything that could squeeze out of Lombardi's graced noodle is better than Lebda and Slaney. Given some balance the Leafs have improved overall but I agree it's all on Reimer but to a lesser extent it should be on Goose.
Also, if Phaneuf can find his form early and avoid a skate across the thigh I think he's looking at a dandy year if he can focus, it's a great opportunity.
Brian Glennie
New member
Saint Nik said:
I recently read this book, Portions from a Wine-Stained Notebook: Uncollected Stories and Essays, 1944-1990, by Charles Bukowski, and he made me think of the Leafs because he talks about a horse who comes on late and then loses is unlikely to go on to future success. According to his time-tested theory, you're better off backing a horse who loses after leading but then falters coming down the stretch.
Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate said:
Compared with a number of other clubs (arguably the vast majority), I agree that Connolly & Lombardi leave something to be desired. Compared to what we had last season, they strike me as no contest in terms of an improvement. We'll also have Lupul for a full season. And as a result, we'll have a third line that should be able to chip in with some scoring. Out of the crop of kids with another year of development under their belts, the forward depth is arguably improved as well.
As a group, the forwards are improved in my opinion but they still leave plenty to be desired as a Cup contender.
Compared to last year, I'm not as sure about the D. As a group, I also think they leave something to be desired as a Cup contender.
IF:
Phaneuf plays better than his last three seasons
Liles plays as well as Kaberle
Schenn doesn't drop off from playing well with Kaberle
Aulie can continue from where he left off
Gunnarsson carries on with his play of later in the season
Komisarek becomes more useful
Franson pans out
... they'll be better
IF:
Phaneuf plays a fourth season like his last three
Liles doesn't play as well as Kaberle did
Schenn slips back lacking the chemistry with Liles that he had with Kaberle
Aulie has a sophomore slump
Gunnarsson slips back to his play in the first half of last season
Komisarek plays like he has his first two seasons in Toronto
Franson pans out because he can't be worse than Lebda
... they'll be worse as a dman group than they were last year.
And I think either scenario is reasonably and maybe equally possible. I don't share the same confidence in how they'll turn out that you have. I'm naturally hoping for the best.
ZBBM
Active member
cw said:
My take:
Phaneuf is not ever going back to the dominant player he was in his first years -- that looks more and more like an anomaly. But I do think he can play all or most of the season at the level he showed at the end of last season. Which, mind you, was nothing spectacular, but at least it was decent and not so many glaring breakdowns.
Between them, Liles and Gunnar (assuming he gets 2PP time) can cover most or all of Kaberle's departed offense. Gunnarsson I think will continue to mature into a Hjalmersson-like defender.
Aulie may have a soph slump but his game is pretty simple so the effect will be muted.
Schenn is a total pro now, I am confident that he'll be consistent from here on out. His game will be what it is: Adam Foote the Sequel. I was hoping for a bit more on the offensive side, but if he he can start strategically erasing people (as was his rep in junior) I will be more than satisfied.
Komi is ... sigh. But if he's 6/7 he could still be an asset.
Franson is assuredly an upgrade over Lebda.
Lashoff should be solid as a fill-in.
So overall I think the D is improved. I predict a drop in GAA.
As for Connolly & Lombardi: If healthy, yes a definite upgrade. I don't believe in "injury-proneness" (that's so much rearview-mirror analyzing IMO) but at the same time I am skeptical of getting a full season out of Connolly given his track record. As for Lombardi, I don't buy the sunshine being piped in from Leafs brass right now. Two major concussions lead me think he might never play at a high level again.
Odds to win a Cup (25 oddsmakers averaged)
http://www.betbrain.com/ice-hockey/#/ice-hockey/united-states/nhl/
Eastern Conference
1. Pittsburgh 8.10
2. Philadelphia 10.01
3. Washington 10.56
4. Boston 10.79
5. Tampa Bay 15.66
6. Buffalo 23.09
7. Montreal 24.34
8. New Jersey 24.61
9. NY Rangers 33.00
10. Carolina 45.68
11. Toronto 54.55
12. Winnipeg 58.06
13. Ottawa 72.36
14. NY Islanders 81.81
15. Florida 110.66
Sports Forecaster also recently picked the Leafs to finish 11th.
http://www.betbrain.com/ice-hockey/#/ice-hockey/united-states/nhl/
Eastern Conference
1. Pittsburgh 8.10
2. Philadelphia 10.01
3. Washington 10.56
4. Boston 10.79
5. Tampa Bay 15.66
6. Buffalo 23.09
7. Montreal 24.34
8. New Jersey 24.61
9. NY Rangers 33.00
10. Carolina 45.68
11. Toronto 54.55
12. Winnipeg 58.06
13. Ottawa 72.36
14. NY Islanders 81.81
15. Florida 110.66
Sports Forecaster also recently picked the Leafs to finish 11th.
maplesyrup
New member
BoDog had us 60-1 prior to all the off-season transactions. I suppose moving up to only ~55-1 is somewhat telling on how we actually fared this off season in contrast to other teams.
Seymore Pucks
New member
Im with Nutman again. Why not be reasonably positive about the coming season. Heres my take on the goalies after reading the 12 pages of this thread.
on the
Goal
Riemer give me confidence just by his character. He continued his form after he finished with the leafs last season as well.
Monster if healthy for the season could actually help alot. He actually played quite well the first bit of the season but the guys in front of him let him down alot. He was making big saves because of defensive break downs in front of him on the first shot and yes some of the rebounds were big, but he can't do all the D work too. If the D fails and lets the other team get a powerful shot in the rebounds are going to be hard to collect and the D did little to make up for their own gaffs by not collecting them. Some games he stood on his head but was let down by the guys in front of him. I still think he could be a very good goalie with health - better D (which I think they have).
and the D
Defence
Phanuef Started coming right with some game time after his injury. He could get better then he used be when a all star. My prediction is that he will be one of the Leafs best players at the end of the season. I think he seems to be the type of player than can respond to the demands of the fans.
Komi Was on the improve down the stretch, perhaps getting back to his old self. Like some have said he never seemed to be the same after the fight with Lucic, but I thought his turning point last season was when he put on the mid ice hit and then had a fight seconds later which he won (sorry can't remember the team now...Western team from memory) and then he was pretty good after that. With his contract he's styaing at the club.
Schenn Just carry on sir.
Aulie and Gunner I thought both were pretty solid like most of the team at the back end on the season. Whilst there is a glut of D men I still can't see Burke trading either or in a hurry if he doesn't need too.
Liles and Franson Should help the power play and 5 on 5 scoring from the D corps. Franson sounds like he could also impose some physical presence as well.
Fowards to come...
on the
Goal
Riemer give me confidence just by his character. He continued his form after he finished with the leafs last season as well.
Monster if healthy for the season could actually help alot. He actually played quite well the first bit of the season but the guys in front of him let him down alot. He was making big saves because of defensive break downs in front of him on the first shot and yes some of the rebounds were big, but he can't do all the D work too. If the D fails and lets the other team get a powerful shot in the rebounds are going to be hard to collect and the D did little to make up for their own gaffs by not collecting them. Some games he stood on his head but was let down by the guys in front of him. I still think he could be a very good goalie with health - better D (which I think they have).
and the D
Defence
Phanuef Started coming right with some game time after his injury. He could get better then he used be when a all star. My prediction is that he will be one of the Leafs best players at the end of the season. I think he seems to be the type of player than can respond to the demands of the fans.
Komi Was on the improve down the stretch, perhaps getting back to his old self. Like some have said he never seemed to be the same after the fight with Lucic, but I thought his turning point last season was when he put on the mid ice hit and then had a fight seconds later which he won (sorry can't remember the team now...Western team from memory) and then he was pretty good after that. With his contract he's styaing at the club.
Schenn Just carry on sir.
Aulie and Gunner I thought both were pretty solid like most of the team at the back end on the season. Whilst there is a glut of D men I still can't see Burke trading either or in a hurry if he doesn't need too.
Liles and Franson Should help the power play and 5 on 5 scoring from the D corps. Franson sounds like he could also impose some physical presence as well.
Fowards to come...
Kin
New member
Bender said:
I buy it. Considering what we just saw the Bruins do I think Buffalo is a better bet to fluke out a cup on the basis of a hot goalie/solid D than the Ranger's mix of good forwards/so-so defense and a good goalie. I think it may be a weird situation where the Rangers are a better team but the Sabres have a better chance at a cup.