maplesyrup
New member
Going into free agency, the Leafs had 0 (zero) franchise crippling contracts. That number hasn't changed at all and guess what? -They just didn't pay for intangibles (which they got in spades). .. He can play a little.
Matt Martin signs with the Leafs [4 years, $2.5mil AAV]
- Thread starter CarltonTheBear
- Start date
herman
Well-known member
Poor value contracts: Robidas, Lupul, Laich, Michalek, Greening, Martin, Horton, Andersen (sort of), Komarov
Martin, Andersen, and Horton carry over beyond 3 years from now, so it's not a huge deal, but it's 2.5M instead of a cycle of 950kish.
The actual contract and term is not onerous or a complete disaster. It's just the alternative of not getting involved at all is way more attractive to me.
Genuine question: How much of an effect will a 10 min per night player have making players "feel safe"?
Martin, Andersen, and Horton carry over beyond 3 years from now, so it's not a huge deal, but it's 2.5M instead of a cycle of 950kish.
The actual contract and term is not onerous or a complete disaster. It's just the alternative of not getting involved at all is way more attractive to me.
Genuine question: How much of an effect will a 10 min per night player have making players "feel safe"?
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
herman said:
Genuine question, why are you saying Andersen, Komarov and Martin are poor value deals?
Is it to suit your lazy narrative?
Leo Komarov outperformed his salary last season and is probably now underpaid as an elite 3rd liner.
Andersen hasn't played a game yet and if you go flatly off the numbers his salary falls at almost exactly the same point his SvPct does amongst starters.
Martin again has not played a game, I think people need to get on board with the fact that if you prove you belong in the NHL as an everyday player and bring something of value, you are going to get paid more than kids on an ELC deal, especially if you make it to free agency.
Did the Greening that finished out the season with the Leafs not look like a $2.6 million dollar player? 15 points in 30 games while finishing his checks is good value in my book and someone that can potentially be turned into a draft pick given his expiring contract.
Why you're bringing up Horton is puzzling, it has no impact on the cap and the same goes for Robidas.
We don't know what the value of having Martin in the lineup will be, but let's look at the facts, he can skate well, he is good on the forecheck and can actually play a little bit, where is the drama?
Some numbers guys get so blinded by wanting everything to be perfect that they can't see the forest for the trees.
The only guy you mentioned that looks like a genuine problem is Lupul, we shall see what happens there and he wasn't a mistake of the current management group.
Tigger said:
Only when it suits your lazy narrative. Otherwise, yes, they do still effect the cap.
Captain Canuck
New member
With so many young players on the roster next season it is not a bad idea to add a player to the roster that can protect them. It is an element that had been sorely lacking the past couple seasons.
Martin led the league in hits last year as well so it should be fun watching him and Uncle Leo crush opposing players.
Sure the contract is a bit of an overpayment, but it will be off the books before it ever becomes much of a cap issue. Lets not forget Martin was one of the younger UFAs out there as well at 27 and is still on the upside of his career.
Martin led the league in hits last year as well so it should be fun watching him and Uncle Leo crush opposing players.
Sure the contract is a bit of an overpayment, but it will be off the books before it ever becomes much of a cap issue. Lets not forget Martin was one of the younger UFAs out there as well at 27 and is still on the upside of his career.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Tigger said:
No they don't, if you're in a position where they become a problem they are put on LTIR and it does not have an impact on your ability to spend.
Add to that the fact that Robidas's contract will be over by the time the Leafs really have this issue.
Peter D.
Moderator
My initial reaction was this was a useless signing and a complete waste of money. I had flashbacks of the Orr deal. Too long and too much for a mucked who hits everything.
I still kind of think that, but it is not a cap crippling contract and he will come in and provide a presence for the youngsters by not allowing them to be pushed around. He can chip in a few goals as well.
By no means a sexy signing, but should be effective.
I still kind of think that, but it is not a cap crippling contract and he will come in and provide a presence for the youngsters by not allowing them to be pushed around. He can chip in a few goals as well.
By no means a sexy signing, but should be effective.
herman
Well-known member
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
Hi WIGWAL,
Which part of that was my lazy narrative? because I'm not even fully certain what my narrative is yet.
Andersen is unproven at his current slightly above average Sv Pct that is square in line with his salary. I believe he will eventually outperform it and become good value, and he's the kind of bet I don't mind the Leafs making. To make those gambles you need the buffer space, and getting nickelled and dimed by paying FA prices for bottom 6 grinders is where you lose flexibility.
I'm not disputing that players that reach Free Agency should get paid what the market allows. I'm saying we don't need to be in the market right now.
Do you know who else can skate well, finishes his checks, and can chip in offensively on a regular basis? Soshnikov, Hyman, Leipsic, Komarov. Even Greening. These are all sunk costs.
Contracts like Horton and Robidas absolutely affect our cap situation. The LTIR lets us go over but is only fully effective when we are up against the cap already. They're remnants of old thinking that just happen to have alleviated consequences.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
Wow, you make it sound so easy, like Pridham can just pretty much ignore them during the regular season, or that they don't completely count against the cap during the offseason.
Why would it matter when Robidas' contract comes off the books, they can just write him off on LTIR, no?
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Tigger said:
So let me get this straight, you're complaining about having Horton on the team, who can be buried on LTIR during the season because he counts during the off-season?
Nathan Horton who is the sole reason we no longer need to suffer Clarkson.
The same off-season in which teams can go 10% over the cap? ($7.3 million.)
Robidas can largely be ignored for the same reason.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
herman said:
I think the lazy part is from a lot of people in the blogosphere screaming bloody murder when every move isn't a slam dunk.
I realise now my word choice with you was more confrontational than it needed to be, sorry about that.
There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction from a lot of well-read people whenever the team does something that they don't believe to be absolutely perfect.
I mean look at the work that has been done on the prospect pool alone in the past 18 months, they are now fairly widely regarded as having the deepest most talented prospect pool in the league.
At what point do they get even a fraction of benefit of the doubt?
Matt Martin on his worst day is a $1.5 million dollar headache if you bury him in the minors.
2% of the cap potentially and yet you have people reacting like they just dropped another Clarkson log in Leafs nation's mouth.
Do you think this management group made this commitment to Martin without any idea of what the team is going to look like going forward?
They clearly feel he has a skillset and a style of game that will add value to the bottom of the lineup and to answer your question, no I don't think the players you mentioned play the same game to the same level as Martin does. Babcock talks relentlessly about being heavy down low and Martin is one of the best in the league at that style of hard grinding game, if he gives you 10-12 minutes a night, but those are minutes that really wear opposition defences down and give the skilled guys in the lineup an extra second, isn't that worth it?
Add to all of this that we know that Michalek, Greening, Laich, Robidas and several others on expiring deals are likely to be gone sooner rather than later.
I'm absolutely fine with the deal and I think it's a small enough commitment, that even the management who themselves have conceded it's slightly more than they wanted to pay, deserve some slack.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Tigger said:
No, you're right. You did act like they are still some kind of burden to be dealt with though, realistically that's just not true. They've been handled already and have no impact on the teams decision making.
Their effect on the cap is nullified by LTIR during the season and the 10% overage during the off-season, add to that the fact that one is expiring and the other rid us of Clarkson who was a real cap problem.
To act like they are some kind of burden doesn't pass the smell test.
hockeyfan1
New member
Not a bad signing, not a great one neither. Martin co-achored one of the league's hard-hitting lines with the Islanders. Certainly not an intelligent performer, however, if the Leafs were looking for someone to act as 'protector' and of a player who knows how to forecheck & create pressure in the offensive zone, and create havoc for the opposition, then Martin is that player.
There are both upsides & downsides:
...the ability to throw a body check is something you want every player to have, but you also don't want them to use it that often.
...hits are one of those statistics that make the hockey analytics community wince. Beyond the fact that hits and other real-time statistics are subjectively tracked and often laced with arena bias, basic critical thinking and sports philosophy will lead you to the conclusion that a player who throws a lot of hits is a player who is always chasing the puck.
...Martin and Clutterbuck have led the le league for seven years, on and off, either one, in hits....While his 17 even strength points and 1.23 5v5 Points Per 60 this year leaves a lot to be desired offensively, that fourth line is surprisingly effective at shutting things down. Clutterbuck, Martin, and Cizikas rank 1-2-3 in Corsi-Against per 60 on the Islanders this year, despite seeing the most neutral and defensive zone starts.
...he might be a reasonable defensive forward who can ride shotgun on an offensive line as their primary forechecker to help establish the zone, and establish pressure when the puck is going the other way.
Source: theleafsnation
There are both upsides & downsides:
...the ability to throw a body check is something you want every player to have, but you also don't want them to use it that often.
...hits are one of those statistics that make the hockey analytics community wince. Beyond the fact that hits and other real-time statistics are subjectively tracked and often laced with arena bias, basic critical thinking and sports philosophy will lead you to the conclusion that a player who throws a lot of hits is a player who is always chasing the puck.
...Martin and Clutterbuck have led the le league for seven years, on and off, either one, in hits....While his 17 even strength points and 1.23 5v5 Points Per 60 this year leaves a lot to be desired offensively, that fourth line is surprisingly effective at shutting things down. Clutterbuck, Martin, and Cizikas rank 1-2-3 in Corsi-Against per 60 on the Islanders this year, despite seeing the most neutral and defensive zone starts.
...he might be a reasonable defensive forward who can ride shotgun on an offensive line as their primary forechecker to help establish the zone, and establish pressure when the puck is going the other way.
Source: theleafsnation
bustaheims
Active member
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:No, you're right. You did act like they are still some kind of burden to be dealt with though, realistically that's just not true. They've been handled already and have no impact on the teams decision making.
Their effect on the cap is nullified by LTIR during the season and the 10% overage during the off-season, add to that the fact that one is expiring and the other rid us of Clarkson who was a real cap problem.
To act like they are some kind of burden doesn't pass the smell test.
They are an issue, though. As I've brought up on a number of occasions, LTIR space cannot be used to cover performance bonuses, and the Leafs could have as much as $5.5M in potential performance bonuses on the roster this season.
McGarnagle
New member
herman said:
I dunno. I might have agreed that it was a little too much cash on the day he we signed, but I'd say any player that is a mainstay on the Finnish national team, plays up and down your lineup, chips in offensively, and gives a full effort/ is a pain to play against is worth a $2.9 hit. I'd say he's been more than full value.
Considering he's only slightly above Martin's 4th line hit, I'd now say it's a screaming deal by comparison.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
bustaheims said:WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:No, you're right. You did act like they are still some kind of burden to be dealt with though, realistically that's just not true. They've been handled already and have no impact on the teams decision making.
Their effect on the cap is nullified by LTIR during the season and the 10% overage during the off-season, add to that the fact that one is expiring and the other rid us of Clarkson who was a real cap problem.
To act like they are some kind of burden doesn't pass the smell test.
They are an issue, though. As I've brought up on a number of occasions, LTIR space cannot be used to cover performance bonuses, and the Leafs could have as much as $5.5M in potential performance bonuses on the roster this season.
You've also alluded to the fact that it's highly unlikely those bonuses are all reached.
Add that to the fact that Robidas is coming off the books along with at least $10 million worth of expiring vets and again your left with the reality that it's not going to be a problem.
This is not to mention the fact that Lupul, Bozak and JVR could well free up more cash in the not too distant future.
The whole thing strikes me as people looking for a problem where there absolutely isn't one.
I get that as Leafs fans we expect the worst at times and I also think a lot of fans, especially amongst the blogosphere, lean on the negative side of most decisions in the interests of being able to say I told you so or at least not have egg on their face if things go wrong again.
It's to the point where some people are almost allergic to optimism.
Just because someone is optimistic does not mean they have not considered the potential negatives and it seems like there are a lot of people who don't grasp this and end up alienating fellow fans by trying to shove the negative down their throats.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
McGarnagle said:
Case in point, anyone disputing McGarnagle's post is both wrong and borderline delusional frankly.