Morgan Rielly

[Corn Flake]

He`s a Vancouver Canucks fan.

BUST.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

Yes, it's delusional at best and idiotic at worst when you complain about not drafting a center when that's your no 1 need. Thanks for straightening us out on that, Puckhog.

I think alot of people including myself are not angry at this because he didn't choose according to need.  Rather we are angry because we do not feel Morgan Rielly is really the best player available.  I contend that was Griego.

It has been 48 hours since the draft, but I am still unable to understand this anger.  With all due respect to the posters on this site, are any of us professional scouts?  There were 10 teams other than the Leafs who passed on "Griego".  He may still in fact turn out to be better than Rielly, but obviously a lot of scouts and teams had concerns about him.

And it is not as if the Leafs went off the board picking Rielly.  He went roughly where it was expected in several mock drafts/prospect rankings. 

Let's give the kid a chance to show what he can do and then we can assess how well the Leafs scouts did.

 

[princedpw]

One very big difference is that a huge percentage of the fan base instantly anticipated Schenn would be the second coming of Chris Pronger.  Given the reaction to Rielly on the message boards, that ain't happening again (until perhaps he gets an assist in a preseason game).

That seems a bit like revisionism to me. I recall most people hoping for and describing him as a potential Adam Foote.

Yes. He was trumpeted as being Adam Foote-like.

No, no one anticipated offense like Pronger's, just the defense....(I was exaggerating a little for dramatic effect)

 

[bustaheims]

I think alot of people including myself are not angry at this because he didn't choose according to need.  Rather we are angry because we do not feel Morgan Rielly is really the best player available.  I contend that was Griego.

You can contend that all you want, and, yes, you may be right, but, at the end of the day, Burke and his scouting staff made their decision based off a significant amount more information than you had available to you. They may not have made the right decision, but they made a much more educated decision than anyone on these boards can claim to have made.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think alot of people including myself are not angry at this because he didn't choose according to need.  Rather we are angry because we do not feel Morgan Rielly is really the best player available.  I contend that was Griego.

You can contend that all you want, and, yes, you may be right, but, at the end of the day, Burke and his scouting staff made their decision based off a significant amount more information than you had available to you. They may not have made the right decision, but they made a much more educated decision than anyone on these boards can claim to have made.

Could be like Montreal and just look at the Central Scouting rating whenever it's your turn to draft and pick the highest ranked guy not picked yet.

 

[ZBBM]

I think alot of people including myself are not angry at this because he didn't choose according to need.  Rather we are angry because we do not feel Morgan Rielly is really the best player available.  I contend that was Griego.

You can contend that all you want, and, yes, you may be right, but, at the end of the day, Burke and his scouting staff made their decision based off a significant amount more information than you had available to you. They may not have made the right decision, but they made a much more educated decision than anyone on these boards can claim to have made.

Busta, this IS a fan board where fans get to express opinions.  No one of us is claiming to be a scout in disguise, nor -- in the context of a fan board -- do we need to defer to the opinions of people who do get paid to evalute talent.  And anyhow, the "appeal to authority" is a well-known fallacy of argumentation.

 

[bustaheims]

Look, I'm not saying they're right because they're more informed, just that they are more informed. You can call that a fallacy all day long, it doesn't change the fact that it's true - they have more information on all the prospects than we have access to. The decision they made was more informed than the opinions we've formed.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I don't think acknowledging that you have a vastly inferior knowledge and firsthand experience of a player is "appealing to authority."  If anything, it is appealing to reality.

 

[Leaflifer]

I'm a believer of always taking the best player available, regardless of what might have been needed the previous year.

A - Things change quite a bit from year to year,

B - there are other ways of filling holes outside of the draft. It seems silly to draft a lesser player to fill a current gap, who isn't going to play in the NHL for 2 years,  and by that time your roster has turned over by 20 to 30% at least.

C - adding the highest value player possible gives you an asset that can help fill that gap if the need arises.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I think alot of people including myself are not angry at this because he didn't choose according to need.  Rather we are angry because we do not feel Morgan Rielly is really the best player available.  I contend that was Griego.

You can contend that all you want, and, yes, you may be right, but, at the end of the day, Burke and his scouting staff made their decision based off a significant amount more information than you had available to you. They may not have made the right decision, but they made a much more educated decision than anyone on these boards can claim to have made.

Busta, this IS a fan board where fans get to express opinions.  No one of us is claiming to be a scout in disguise, nor -- in the context of a fan board -- do we need to defer to the opinions of people who do get paid to evalute talent.  And anyhow, the "appeal to authority" is a well-known fallacy of argumentation.

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

Not only is the jury out on whether Burke chose wisely or not, the jury will probably be out for at least another two years, and possibly a lot longer.

 

[Kin]

Look, I'm not saying they're right because they're more informed, just that they are more informed. You can call that a fallacy all day long, it doesn't change the fact that it's true - they have more information on all the prospects than we have access to. The decision they made was more informed than the opinions we've formed.

The problem with that line of thought isn't that it isn't true but rather that it's true of every single decision ever made by any NHL GM ever. I think that when we, as fans, have opinions we sort of do so with that as a given. Every decision Burke makes is with more information than we have but the same was true of JFJ. I'm not sure how a reasonable fan wouldn't come to three conclusions:

1) NHL GM's are more informed than fans
2) That information hasn't prevented all manner of terrible decisions
3) That #1 is true should buy a GM very little in the way of faith because #2 is true

I mean, you could make the point that every time the Leafs make a roster move of any kind the only reasonable reaction would be to wait and see how it plays out but that strikes as being sort of antithetical to the concept of fandom in the first place.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Look, I'm not saying they're right because they're more informed, just that they are more informed. You can call that a fallacy all day long, it doesn't change the fact that it's true - they have more information on all the prospects than we have access to. The decision they made was more informed than the opinions we've formed.

The problem with that line of thought isn't that it isn't true but rather that it's true of every single decision ever made by any NHL GM ever. I think that when we, as fans, have opinions we sort of do so with that as a given. Every decision Burke makes is with more information than we have but the same was true of JFJ. I'm not sure how a reasonable fan wouldn't come to three conclusions:

1) NHL GM's are more informed than fans
2) That information hasn't prevented all manner of terrible decisions
3) That #1 is true should buy a GM very little in the way of faith because #2 is true

I mean, you could make the point that every time the Leafs make a roster move of any kind the only reasonable reaction would be to wait and see how it plays out but that strikes as being sort of antithetical to the concept of fandom in the first place.

There is almost an unthinkable amount of difference between forming an opinion about which player gets drafted and about trades and signings of actual NHL players.  Virtually all of us have virtually zero first-hand knowledge and impression of any of the most highly rated draftees.  Almost the entirety of what we know about them is what others have said and decided about them.  By contrast, when we evaluate NHL trades and signings, we're talking about players we've seen for years, playing against the same competition.  I mean, just looking at the Schenn trade (which people have mixed opinions about), everybody here has seen Schenn play hundreds of games, and has seen JVR play dozens of times, against NHL competition.

The opinions formed about draftees are formed by scouts watching them a few handfuls of times at a young age.  They do the best they can with what they see, but it's a system based on immense subjectivity and educated guesswork.  It's a system that called Kyle Turris the best North American skater in the 2007 draft year, ahead of Kane, JVR, Gagner, Couture, Perron, and Subban.  Leaf fans would have been elated to get Turris in 2007, but would now probably have to at least think about whether they'd want to have him or Matt Frattin, ranked #115 that same year.

To form a strong opinion based on other people's opinions is fine when those other people's opinions can be considered reliable and trustworthy.  I don't believe the CSS ranking system for draftees is nearly as reliable and trustworthy as it's made out to be.  They make plenty of misjudgments every year.  I don't see how anybody can take a strong position on Burke's choice at this time.

 

[bustaheims]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

 

[Rebel_1812]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

So basically you think we don't have the right to have an opinion on these matters.  Well your argue doesn't just stop at prospects.  Most UFA's or players traded for have "only been seen a handful of times" . Kind of defeats the purpose of being a fan doesn't it. ;-)

But seriously, you argue is flawed.  Seeing players play is not a necessarily better judge of talent then watching highlights, checking stats and scouting reports. Jeremy Williams looked pretty good in his first 3 games with the leafs.  Luke Schenn looked good in his first year with the leafs and never looked the same since.  Versteeg looked pretty average when playing with the leafs but looked good with Florida and Chicago.  Just watching players can be inconsistent in assessment.

 

[maplesyrup]

Everyone's got a right to an opinion... just as much as everyone has a right to respect one's opinion over another's.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

So basically you think we don't have the right to have an opinion on these matters.  Well your argue doesn't just stop at prospects.  Most UFA's or players traded for have "only been seen a handful of times" . Kind of defeats the purpose of being a fan doesn't it. ;-)

You still have the right to an opinion (example: the opinions you've been expressing).  It's the validity of the opinion that is at issue.

 

[maplesyrup]

morgan rielly ‏@mriles4
Woke up to this.. Newest member of leafs nation #maggie
http://yfrog.com/hw16895255j

Looks exactly my two-year-old lab... So cute (I'm a softie.)

 

[ZBBM]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

So basically you think we don't have the right to have an opinion on these matters.  Well your argue doesn't just stop at prospects.  Most UFA's or players traded for have "only been seen a handful of times" . Kind of defeats the purpose of being a fan doesn't it. ;-)

You still have the right to an opinion (example: the opinions you've been expressing).  It's the validity of the opinion that is at issue.

You see, Potvin, you just gave the game away.  Busta, you, and others want to be able to stand there and say "They know more than we do" and then disclaim any further implications whatsoever.  But the whole appeal to authority fallacy is that such appeals are never value-neutral.  They always come with the implication that the authority figure's opinion/assertion is more valid simply because they are in a position of authority.  Yet we know that not every opinion/decision of people in authority is better than those of people outside of authority.

The point I am arguing is not that BB & Co. have more info on Rielly than I do.  Nor am even I definitively claiming that my opinion is more well-founded than theirs -- it might be, and everyone here will (or should) agree that none of us can predict the future.  What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint.  Especially in the context of a fan board where the whole raison d'etre is to offer opinions and debate them.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

From his junior coach....

Mike Stothers has no problem acknowledging it.

Morgan Rielly bugged him toward the end of the 2011-12 season.

A lot.

But it?s not what you might be thinking, and Stothers, the head coach of the Moose Jaw Warriors of the Western Hockey League, wouldn?t have had it any other way.

As Rielly, selected fifth overall by the Maple Leafs on Friday night in the 2012 entry draft in Pittsburgh, was nearing the end of his recovery from a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee, he would make daily stops in Stothers? office.

?Every day for about three weeks, telling me he was ready to get back in the lineup,? Stothers recalled with a chuckle on Sunday afternoon. ?I had to keep telling him we had to wait for clearance from the doctors. The scary thing was, he would be practising and he would be doing things that were unbelievable (for someone coming off knee surgery). And we couldn?t play him until we got the word.?

For Stothers ? a former Leafs and Philadelphia Flyers defenceman who has coached in various capacities in the NHL, AHL and major junior since 1991 ? it?s hard not to think of what Rielly might have done had he been healthy for the entire season. The smooth-skating defenceman had 18 points in 18 games before he was hurt on Nov. 6 after crashing into the net during a game against Calgary, eventually returning in April for the end of the Warriors? playoff run.

But it?s clear the Leafs have a prospect who brings a lot more than a point-a-game pace. Stothers couldn?t have been more adamant about that.

?I can?t say enough about him,? Stothers said. ?I?ve had a lot of kids in junior, but his combination of talent, commitment, personality ? you hear it a lot, but with him, you?re really not going to meet a better kid.?

Whether Rielly was home in Vancouver during periods of rehabilitation or in Moose Jaw, his presence around the team was constant. If he was not in touch with his teammates through texting or other form of social media, it would not be uncommon for the Warriors to return from a trip in the wee hours of the morning and see Rielly waiting in the parking lot.

The hockey player that the Leafs drafted is one, Stothers believes, who is finely suited for the game today. Rielly compared himself to Kris Letang when he met with reporters in Pittsburgh, and Stothers dropped the names of Erik Karlsson and Brian Leetch into the conversation on Sunday.

Big expectations, yes, but that?s what happens when you are taken fifth overall.

 

[maplesyrup]

What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint. 

Sorry, when did that happen exactly? I just think that when people here are to the point of lighting themselves on fire and jumping out a window over a draft selection (in reality) they know very little about, some appeal to authority is required to bring back some perspective and balance.