Morgan Rielly

[GhostofPotvin29]

?I can?t say enough about him,? Stothers said. ?I?ve had a lot of kids in junior, but his combination of talent, commitment, personality ? you hear it a lot, but with him, you?re really not going to meet a better kid.?

I know Stothers likes to be a blowhard, but seriously?  What a ridiculous statement.  You're never going to meet a better kid?  What a load of crap to say the most.  If that were true and his own son read that, he'd have to go into hiding.

Hope Simmons calls him on that!

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

So basically you think we don't have the right to have an opinion on these matters.  Well your argue doesn't just stop at prospects.  Most UFA's or players traded for have "only been seen a handful of times" . Kind of defeats the purpose of being a fan doesn't it. ;-)

You still have the right to an opinion (example: the opinions you've been expressing).  It's the validity of the opinion that is at issue.

You see, Potvin, you just gave the game away.  Busta, you, and others want to be able to stand there and say "They know more than we do" and then disclaim any further implications whatsoever.  But the whole appeal to authority fallacy is that such appeals are never value-neutral.  They always come with the implication that the authority figure's opinion/assertion is more valid simply because they are in a position of authority.  Yet we know that not every opinion/decision of people in authority is better than those of people outside of authority.

The point I am arguing is not that BB & Co. have more info on Rielly than I do.  Nor am even I definitively claiming that my opinion is more well-founded than theirs -- it might be, and everyone here will (or should) agree that none of us can predict the future.  What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint.  Especially in the context of a fan board where the whole raison d'etre is to offer opinions and debate them.

No, nobody wants to disclaim any further implications whatsoever.  People like myself (I will only speak for myself though) are simply saying we trust the opinions of the people paid to scout the players, over the opinions of people who do not get paid to do so and probably didn't know anything about the player a week ago (apologies to any scouts here, or any WHL fans who did watch Rielly consistently).

I don't care if you give your opinion on drafted players/prospects, just like I would hope you don't care if I give my opinion that I have more trust in the Leafs scouts.

None of that stops your ability to discuss and debate the selection.  Have at it.  Just like most everyone else, my opinion on the picks are 100% based by the opinions/reports of others.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

?I can?t say enough about him,? Stothers said. ?I?ve had a lot of kids in junior, but his combination of talent, commitment, personality ? you hear it a lot, but with him, you?re really not going to meet a better kid.?

I know Stothers likes to be a blowhard, but seriously?  What a ridiculous statement.  You're never going to meet a better kid?  What a load of crap to say the most.  If that were true and his own son read that, he'd have to go into hiding.

Hope Simmons calls him on that!

I don't know Stothers, but I only took it as Rielly is a good kid, not that he was the best kid that he'd ever met or what-have-you.

At least it wasn't negative stuff.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

?I can?t say enough about him,? Stothers said. ?I?ve had a lot of kids in junior, but his combination of talent, commitment, personality ? you hear it a lot, but with him, you?re really not going to meet a better kid.?

I know Stothers likes to be a blowhard, but seriously?  What a ridiculous statement.  You're never going to meet a better kid?  What a load of crap to say the most.  If that were true and his own son read that, he'd have to go into hiding.

Hope Simmons calls him on that!

I don't know Stothers, but I only took it as Rielly is a good kid, not that he was the best kid that he'd ever met or what-have-you.

At least it wasn't negative stuff.

I was just 'avin a laugh.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I was just 'avin a laugh.

Ok, I wasn't sure there... I did think that you were joking at one point, but wasn't sure either way.

 

[ZBBM]

What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint. 

Sorry, when did that happen exactly? I just think that when people here are to the point of lighting themselves on fire and jumping out a window over a draft selection (in reality) they know very little about, some appeal to authority is required to bring back some perspective and balance.

Sorry, when did that happen exactly?

 

[Kin]

Apologies for quoting you out of order but I think it's necessary here:

The opinions formed about draftees are formed by scouts watching them a few handfuls of times at a young age.  They do the best they can with what they see, but it's a system based on immense subjectivity and educated guesswork.  It's a system that called Kyle Turris the best North American skater in the 2007 draft year, ahead of Kane, JVR, Gagner, Couture, Perron, and Subban.  Leaf fans would have been elated to get Turris in 2007, but would now probably have to at least think about whether they'd want to have him or Matt Frattin, ranked #115 that same year.

I agree for the most part. The track record of the men paid to make these decisions, pro scout and GM,  is highly suspect and those decisions should be looked on with a healthy amount of skepticism.

To form a strong opinion based on other people's opinions is fine when those other people's opinions can be considered reliable and trustworthy.  I don't believe the CSS ranking system for draftees is nearly as reliable and trustworthy as it's made out to be.  They make plenty of misjudgments every year.  I don't see how anybody can take a strong position on Burke's choice at this time.

Again, I agree here mostly as well. To a large extent how you feel about the decision is going to speak in a larger sense to how much trust/faith one has in BRIAN BURKE and what else he's done here. In bucking popular opinion(it wasn't just CSS that had Forsberg over Rielly) BURKE is raising the question of what he's done before and how much one values the reliability/trustworthiness of his opinion.

FWIW, I don't have much of an opinion on Morgan Rielly and haven't expressed one. But there's no real disagreement here. I might point out that those who take it upon themselves to police the boards for appropriate levels of positivity would be as reasonable giving lectures about the inherent enigma of draft picks when people talk about how BRIAN BURKE just had a "great" draft as some have been inclined but seem not to be as eager to apply the reins there. That's not you though so no matter.

There is almost an unthinkable amount of difference between forming an opinion about which player gets drafted and about trades and signings of actual NHL players.  Virtually all of us have virtually zero first-hand knowledge and impression of any of the most highly rated draftees.  Almost the entirety of what we know about them is what others have said and decided about them.  By contrast, when we evaluate NHL trades and signings, we're talking about players we've seen for years, playing against the same competition.  I mean, just looking at the Schenn trade (which people have mixed opinions about), everybody here has seen Schenn play hundreds of games, and has seen JVR play dozens of times, against NHL competition.

You're missing my point there a bit. Trades that don't, on the surface, make sense to us are still made with more information than we possess. Those trades often end up working out. It's still inherently reasonable to not worry about a personnel move costing the team points until it actually plays out as such.

But, as I said, it strikes me as counter-intuitive to the inherent irrationality of passionate fandom. After all, the people who didn't like the Clark-Sundin trade or the Antropov pick...the worst that can be said there is they ended up being wrong, right?

 

[ZBBM]

No, we don't need to defer to the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  However, we should also recognize that our opinions on the issue are already pretty much entirely based on the opinions of people who get paid to evaluate talent.  We're just choosing who we're deferring to, if we have an opinion at all.

That's just it - a lot of people are forming some very strong opinions about these prospects when, at best, they've seen each them play a handful of times, and, in many cases, less than that.

So basically you think we don't have the right to have an opinion on these matters.  Well your argue doesn't just stop at prospects.  Most UFA's or players traded for have "only been seen a handful of times" . Kind of defeats the purpose of being a fan doesn't it. ;-)

You still have the right to an opinion (example: the opinions you've been expressing).  It's the validity of the opinion that is at issue.

You see, Potvin, you just gave the game away.  Busta, you, and others want to be able to stand there and say "They know more than we do" and then disclaim any further implications whatsoever.  But the whole appeal to authority fallacy is that such appeals are never value-neutral.  They always come with the implication that the authority figure's opinion/assertion is more valid simply because they are in a position of authority.  Yet we know that not every opinion/decision of people in authority is better than those of people outside of authority.

The point I am arguing is not that BB & Co. have more info on Rielly than I do.  Nor am even I definitively claiming that my opinion is more well-founded than theirs -- it might be, and everyone here will (or should) agree that none of us can predict the future.  What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint.  Especially in the context of a fan board where the whole raison d'etre is to offer opinions and debate them.

No, nobody wants to disclaim any further implications whatsoever.  People like myself (I will only speak for myself though) are simply saying we trust the opinions of the people paid to scout the players, over the opinions of people who do not get paid to do so and probably didn't know anything about the player a week ago (apologies to any scouts here, or any WHL fans who did watch Rielly consistently).

I don't care if you give your opinion on drafted players/prospects, just like I would hope you don't care if I give my opinion that I have more trust in the Leafs scouts.

None of that stops your ability to discuss and debate the selection.  Have at it.  Just like most everyone else, my opinion on the picks are 100% based by the opinions/reports of others.

Great, we agree then.  But I'd also just say once more that, for me anyway, the complaint is not about Rielly per se and his potential abilities, but about the fact they didn't choose a center or at least a forward.

 

[bustaheims]

Great, we agree then.  But I'd also just say once more that, for me anyway, the complaint is not about Rielly per se and his potential abilities, but about the fact they didn't choose a center or at least a forward.

But, that's based on the assumption that the forwards available are at least at a similar talent level to Rielly (which is one of the areas I don't feel we, as fans, know enough to really make a judgement on) and that, when these players are ready, the Leafs will still need to fill that hole rather than a hole on the blueline (something no one can say with any authority - a lot can and will happen between now and when the prospects in question establish themselves as NHL players). I also would have preferred a forward, but, I recognize that I don't know enough about any of the prospects to be able to say for sure whether or not they would have been better choices than Rielly, and, because of that, I'm putting my faith in those that had significantly more information to work with than I did. At the end of the day, the team needed to pick the best talent available, regardless of position. As has been said numerous times, drafting for current needs is a poor strategy.

And, in reality, all I was trying to point out the whole time was that some of the hyperbole around here in regards to the pick was, quite frankly, asinine. Calling for people to be fired, calling them idiots, blowhards, whatever. Our opinions are no more valid than those making the decisions, but they absolutely had more information to work with, where as we're largely basing our opinions on the prospects available on the opinions of others and some highlight reels.

 

[Kin]

And, in reality, all I was trying to point out the whole time was that some of the hyperbole around here in regards to the pick was, quite frankly, asinine. Calling for people to be fired, calling them idiots, blowhards, whatever.

I think there's common ground there. Nobody should have let this pick entirely form their opinion on anyone's idiocy/blowhardiness.

Now, as a tipping point...

 

[bustaheims]

I think there's common ground there. Nobody should have let this pick entirely form their opinion on anyone's idiocy/blowhardiness.

Now, as a tipping point...

I know you're just being facetious, but, even as a tipping point, it's a poor choice. We won't really know whether or not Rielly was the right pick for a good 5-10 years, and, even then, there's a good chance things may not be entirely clear.

 

[Kin]

I know you're just being facetious, but, even as a tipping point, it's a poor choice. We won't really know whether or not Rielly was the right pick for a good 5-10 years, and, even then, there's a good chance things may not be entirely clear.

Well, if we're going to play that game we'll never know for sure regardless. If Forsberg becomes a mix of Mario Lemieux/Gordie Howe/Adam Banks someone will come along and say "Yeah, but how would he have adjusted to this Market".

If, however, we take the Rielly pick in the abstract and what it says about BRIAN BURKE and his approach to building a team, well, it's an opinion anyway.

 

[maplesyrup]

What I am saying is that appealing to authority is not a valid reason to shut down or deprecate another's viewpoint. 

Sorry, when did that happen exactly? I just think that when people here are to the point of lighting themselves on fire and jumping out a window over a draft selection (in reality) they know very little about, some appeal to authority is required to bring back some perspective and balance.

Sorry, when did that happen exactly?

Okay. Fair ball I guess.

 

[Rebel_1812]

I think there's common ground there. Nobody should have let this pick entirely form their opinion on anyone's idiocy/blowhardiness.

Now, as a tipping point...

I know you're just being facetious, but, even as a tipping point, it's a poor choice. We won't really know whether or not Rielly was the right pick for a good 5-10 years, and, even then, there's a good chance things may not be entirely clear.

I don't know about that.  Barry Trapp was let go as a scout at the Tlusty draft and said he would have taken Chris Stewart at the time.  Seems he was right as Chris Stewart is alot better then Tlusty and is a player they could have picked. 

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think there's common ground there. Nobody should have let this pick entirely form their opinion on anyone's idiocy/blowhardiness.

Now, as a tipping point...

I know you're just being facetious, but, even as a tipping point, it's a poor choice. We won't really know whether or not Rielly was the right pick for a good 5-10 years, and, even then, there's a good chance things may not be entirely clear.

I don't know about that.  Barry Trapp was let go as a scout at the Tlusty draft and said he would have taken Chris Stewart at the time.  Seems he was right as Chris Stewart is alot better then Tlusty and is a player they could have picked. 

The same Tlusty that scored more goals and points than Stewart this season? I'm not saying he's a better player but 6 years later both players have had their ups and downs, and still don't know for sure.

 

[Etiam Vultus]

I think there's common ground there. Nobody should have let this pick entirely form their opinion on anyone's idiocy/blowhardiness.

Now, as a tipping point...

I know you're just being facetious, but, even as a tipping point, it's a poor choice. We won't really know whether or not Rielly was the right pick for a good 5-10 years, and, even then, there's a good chance things may not be entirely clear.

I don't know about that.  Barry Trapp was let go as a scout at the Tlusty draft and said he would have taken Chris Stewart at the time.  Seems he was right as Chris Stewart is alot better then Tlusty and is a player they could have picked. 

The same Tlusty that scored more goals and points than Stewart this season? I'm not saying he's a better player but 6 years later both players have had their ups and downs, and still don't know for sure.

Steward was a healthy scratch at times during the playoffs this year.  He also had to take a contract for next year that is worth less than what a qualifying offer would have been. 

I think as fans we see the warts on the players on our own team, e.g. Luke Schenn, but we do not see them as much on other teams, particularly if they play in the western conference.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050

Very apparent why Leafs were so high on Morgan Rielly. The best player by far during an intra-squad prospect game.

 

[Fanatic]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050

Very apparent why Leafs were so high on Morgan Rielly. The best player by far during an intra-squad prospect game.

I was just about to post that same thing. Nice to see.

 

[Redleaf]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050

Very apparent why Leafs were so high on Morgan Rielly. The best player by far during an intra-squad prospect game.

A Justin Schultz consolation prize, or the better D-man?

 

[Bender]

Jonas Siegel ‏@jonasTSN1050

Very apparent why Leafs were so high on Morgan Rielly. The best player by far during an intra-squad prospect game.

I was just about to post that same thing. Nice to see.

Thats really interesting. You would think that maybe someone else would have the edge, but I guess the kid just oozes talent.